Clay-Liston I / Was it fixed?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by BillB, Aug 18, 2012.


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  1. Senor Pepe'

    Senor Pepe' Boxing Junkie banned

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    Ron U.K.

    Are you a psychologist or mental therapist.

    How do you know what Sonny Liston's mental make up was in February 1964.

    Because you watched 6-Rounds of a 'supposed boxing match'.
     
    Senor Pepe', Aug 19, 2012
    Senor Pepe', Aug 19, 2012
    #61
  2. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    the fact that he quite on his stool as champ and stayed down from the first big punch as a challenger speaks volumes of his mental make up.
     
    lufcrazy, Aug 19, 2012
    lufcrazy, Aug 19, 2012
    #62
  3. BillB

    BillB Well-Known Member Full Member

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    It doesn't speak anything about his mental makeup unless you know why he did those things.

    He could have been paid or coerced to into doing them.

    That may not be the case, but again we don't know.
     
    BillB, Aug 19, 2012
    BillB, Aug 19, 2012
    #63
  4. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    yeah and he could have had an invisible woodpecker secretly hitting his opponent in the head every time he threw a jab.

    the simple answer is he quit because he was mentally weak. stop looking for conspiracy where none exists.
     
    lufcrazy, Aug 19, 2012
    lufcrazy, Aug 19, 2012
    #64
  5. BillB

    BillB Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Conspiracies exist in every fight.
    Two or more people working together for a common goal makes a conspiracy.
    If a fighter has a trainer or manager and they work together to try to defeat the opponent, that's a conspiracy.


    The fact remains that you don't have a clue about Liston's mental makeup at the time of those fights and neither do I.
     
    BillB, Aug 19, 2012
    BillB, Aug 19, 2012
    #65
  6. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    exactly so you go with the simplest theory unless proven otherwise.

    Liston quit. if there's a conspiracy about it I need to see some proof.
     
    lufcrazy, Aug 19, 2012
    lufcrazy, Aug 19, 2012
    #66
  7. Senor Pepe'

    Senor Pepe' Boxing Junkie banned

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    One thing we do know...

    "Sonny Loved Money"

    Titles didn't mean a thing to him.

    And he could care less about his public image, as he hated mostly everyone.
     
    Senor Pepe', Aug 19, 2012
    Senor Pepe', Aug 19, 2012
    #67
  8. BillB

    BillB Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Why is Liston being told to lose and/or paid to lose complicated?

    It could have been as simple as a phone call.

    There is nothing complex about that.

    Neither one of us know what happened. If you want to believe your version of events, go for it.
     
    BillB, Aug 19, 2012
    BillB, Aug 19, 2012
    #68
  9. BillB

    BillB Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I just read what is claimed to be the "real story" of how Liston died. I don't want to derail the thread with it. I'll PM you.
     
    BillB, Aug 19, 2012
    BillB, Aug 19, 2012
    #69
  10. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    Because a fix, or throwing a fight, is not the usual course of action. Hence it is more complex than the usual course of action: the fight being on the level.

    I just thank the lord the world isn't full of people who use your logic.

    You don't look for proof either way. You look for proof against the default position. That's how works. A man does not have to prove he is innocent, just that he is not guilty.

    Read up on logic kid. It'll hopefully give you a better grasp of how life works :good
     
    lufcrazy, Aug 19, 2012
    lufcrazy, Aug 19, 2012
    #70
  11. BillB

    BillB Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I see.
    Let's apply your own logic to your argument.

    Fight 1

    http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...3oyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=8-kFAAAAIBAJ&pg=3033,4989029

    This is your beloved "default". No weak mindedness here. Liston quit because of a valid injury which made it impossible for him to continue.


    Fight 2

    Clay connected in the first round with a short right. Liston went down. He got up before a ten count (there was no count).

    Referee Walcott erroneously stopped the fight.

    No weak mindedness here. Liston did everything he should have done to continue the fight. The referee made a bad call.


    Those are the "defaults" (whatever in hell that means).

    Now, it's up to you to prove that these were the product of Liston's mental condition.


    I'm anxious to see how your logic will change with this.
     
    BillB, Aug 19, 2012
    BillB, Aug 19, 2012
    #71
  12. Senor Pepe'

    Senor Pepe' Boxing Junkie banned

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    Bill B,

    Forget about trying to logically explain the possibility of a 'fix' to the naysayers.

    These same people still think Mickey Dolenz played the drums on all The Monkee's
    albums.
     
    Senor Pepe', Aug 19, 2012
    Senor Pepe', Aug 19, 2012
    #72
  13. BillB

    BillB Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Senor,

    Yep, it's a cult. I was surprised to find that among boxing fans.

    We're all lucky Ali didn't dispense Kool-Aid to his followers or tell them there was a UFO waiting behind the Hale-Bopp comet.
     
    BillB, Aug 19, 2012
    BillB, Aug 19, 2012
    #73
  14. Legend X

    Legend X Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    The 'mystique of Liston' isn't the issue.
    The fact that the fight was a dud and the champ was quick to fold up his tent and throw up the white flag make the 'fix' a possibility.
    And that's just taking it at 'face value'.

    I think the 'mystique' and reputation of Ali is more relevant in the way many of you seem to miss that.
     
    Legend X, Aug 19, 2012
    Legend X, Aug 19, 2012
    #74
  15. TBooze

    TBooze Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Doing my own investigating, I note how similar BillB and Senor Pepe's styles are...

    I think BillB was just created for 'Cassius Clay' agenda of our beloved former Italian dictator.
     
    TBooze, Aug 19, 2012
    TBooze, Aug 19, 2012
    #75
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