Clay-Liston I / Was it fixed?

Pepe. Bless ya,you're a good poster.
What in Liston's previous history would you suppose he'd throw a fight? He was a monster,he was knocking over all and sundry.
It's not too complicated to assume he'd never come across anyone like Ali,let's face it at that time,there'd never been anyone like Ali.
At the stage in the fight he quit he was busted up and cut,with this cocky young guy in front of him dancing around him and looking as though he could do anything he wanted.
At that stage of the fight and with the shoulder injury they just probably decided to bail out.
Either way it shouldn't detract from Ali,he was out boxing Liston and handling him in a way no else ever had.
As for the second fight I think Liston basically lay down,I don't think the fix was in.

 

All the fix talk just explains what doesn't have to be explained.

Off the 1940 census, Liston was probably born in 1930. He reached 34 in 1964, past his best anyway, exacerbated by heavy drinking.

Ali was the fastest young heavyweight ever and improving.

Two factors caused Ali to be underestimated. His so-so performances against Jones and Cooper, both much smaller but quicker than Liston.

And his clown act. Many old-line types just couldn't take him seriously.


Why in the world would you put on this sort of show in a fix. Liston went down in the second fight. Why not this one? Make it look good. Instead he quits on his stool whimpering about a sore shoulder?

 

Ron U. K.

I Love You Brother Poster,

But Sonny was in a 'financial mess' and The Nilon Brothers; Manager Jack Nilon and his brother Robert Nilon
(President of I.C.P) and James Nilon (Treasurer of I.C.P.) were going broke taking care of Sonny and all his problems.

They all wanted out, and nobody else wanted Sonny and the baggage that came along with him.

The time was right to 'cash in'.

They cut the deal with William Faversham (President of the Louisville Sponsoring Group), concerning
both fights.

Just in case you didn't know, The Nilon Brothers owned 45% of Sonny Liston.

In August 1964, Jack Nilon quit as Manager of Sonny Liston. He couldn't take it anymore.

 

7:18 - blinking
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"Clay was considered a clown and an undeserving contender."

Which is why Liston didn't want to hang around to get embarrassingly knocked out in the round Clay predicted (round 8) and so quit cold to protect his image for the rematch.

Of course, this really didn't work either but Liston didn't have time to commission a Gallup Poll to test fan reaction.

Bottom line for me is that there is nothing to explain. Liston was 34 and into the sauce and ran into a lot more than he could handle in the young Clay. In the second one he ran into a right and went down. He probably could have gotten up but figured he had seen enough to know there was no way he was going to catch Ali and elected to just take a ten-second nap. Walcott botching the count made it look even worse than it was.

 

You've convinced me . Two legitimate victories with 1 being injury related and 1 being due to poor reffing.

Well played :good

I can't provide enough evidence to go against the default so i'll drop my spurious claim.

 

No I don't think there's much mystique regarding ali as he fulfilled his potential.

Liston was perceived as being the next hw great and lost to the mouthy upstart. The result is so shocking it had a couple of people believing it not to be true.

If I see any proof of a fix i'll happily go along with it. Until then BillB has convinced me that the first fight was a legitimate injury and the second was shoddy refereeing.

 

Okay, maybe it's the 'legend' of Ali that make a lot of people view the fight differently that it was viewed at the time.
It was quite a farcical event.

 

No I don't give two shits about ali. It's the mystique of Liston that intrigues me.

 

Most fans knew going in, Bruno/Gardner was going to be a farce, and they were 'duly' not disappointed. But that does not make the fight a fix, or dishonest in a court of law.

 

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there is NO evidence in favour of the fix.