Cleveland Big Cat Williams gets a title shot on Sept 26 1962 instead of Sonny Liston.

Then his redsurrection.

 

Jerusalem like.

 

I thought he was the second coming of Jesus with that return.

 

Jesus would be a lot more fair on SRL

 

Exactly, Tyson was pretty much in full time training throughout the year, even while his life was in utter chaos, so he could have a bad camp, there could be concerns and he would still win. He went to party’s in camp. He crashed cars. He took flights to chase women. If he lost a fight people could say “oh there was concerns before the fight, he had a bad camp”. But not when he won. Do you see what I am saying here? If he won all the concerns get forgotten. But they were as well documented as the concerns before he lost. Tyson still made it into the ring in good shape. Because he still trained enough to win the fights that he won. Bad camp or not. He trained enough for the fight he lost too. Bad camp or not. The guy was a machine. He always delivered.

 

Oh come on.

You implied Tyson came in heavy against Tucker because he partied and didn't train properly so as to minimize his bad camp against Douglas. I give you a fight where he weighed 1/4 pound more and we know he was in peak condition and you pretend you never said what you said and that we are in some sort of alignment. You dropped your whole point like a hot potato.

We have Tyson's own claims per the Tucker camp. You say there concerns pre fight on other occasions when he won.

Where can i read about Tyson being "pretty much in full time training throughout the year" when his life was in chaos?

What other camps can you point to that were bad given you are implying they were common place? You say "they were as well documented as the concerns before he lost". Where can i read about this? The concerns pre Douglas have already been provided by Swag.

What other camps is he documented as looking poor in sparring and actually getting sat on his ass?

I don't doubt he had a loose camp or two but you are going to have to provide a lot more than you have given you claim they are as well documented. You seem to almost be implying his mob were claiming poor camps all the time in case he lost.

Let me tell you where quite a bit of it went wrong for Tyson.

His insanely busy fighting schedule got bumped back. This gave him more spare time and more time out of the gym. This started immediately after the Michael Spinks fight. More spare time for a head case like Tyson mixed in with the fame and attention and changing of the guard (people he was hanging with) was a ticking bomb.

Leading into the November fight against Berbick he had 12!!!! bouts racked up for the year. Obviously this rate wasn't going to last.

Less than 4 months after Berbick was Smith.
2 1/2 months later was Thomas.
2 months later was Tucker.
4 1/2 months later was Biggs.
3 months later Holmes.
2 months later Tubbs.
3 months later Spinks.

Then it changed.

8 months later was Bruno, where he looked rusty.
5 months later was Williams, 93 seconds of work.
5 months later was Douglas.

So he had 93 seconds of work in the previous year leading into Douglas.

When fighting so crazy often he was in the gym a lot, in shape and less inclined to stupidity.

Now they all have their problems but i think it's fair to say Tyson as a bit of a mental midget, and a violent reckless one. Multiple factors probably combined to reduce his activity but when he was fighting often he was on a good roll and better off for obvious reasons.

Deep down Tyson only has himself to blame for anything and everything.

Buster stood tall too and fought a brilliant fight. Dominated him excepting one fleeting punch. Even in shape it would have been a tough out. Some believe Douglas may have beat him anyway. We will never know.

 

He was on the verge of quitting before the Tony Tucker 'Ultimate' fight

A month before one of the most famous fights in his career, in 1987, he almost quit altogether. Tyson says he disappeared from training camp and partied in Albany for two weeks straight.

In a nightclub, he told friends he was going to retire. But his manager, Jimmy Jacobs, called him and said that they would be sued if he backed out of the fight, talking him out of it. He says: "I should have retired then but I didn't have control of my own life." He went on to beat Tucker to become undisputed heavyweight champion of the world.

Tyson admits to being on drugs during several fights in the 2000s. He says he took marijuana and cocaine before walking to the ring against Lou Savarese at Hampden Park in 2000, in what was his third comeback fight after a nine-month break.

yes I agree with all of this actually. Tyson was likely to get away with a lax training camp or two when he was so active. Especially if he was up against guys like Spinks and Holmes who were less active or guys like Thomas or Tubbs who were years away from real wins over rated fighters. I still believe Tyson beats all of his previous opponents on the night he fought Douglas. Tell me, Who from the guys he fought before was he going to lose to that night in Tokyo?

 

That's from Tyson's book isn't it? I don't believe for a second he was going to quit. Heavyweights are threatening to quit all the time. Ali did it, Holmes talked it a lot, Fury's going that way etc.

That's just one single fight which you had parroted already.

We'll never know who would have or would not have chok. Douglas did put on a helluva show, virtually flawless. It's factual to say Tyson was a long way from his greatest shape tho. There were reports he was sluggish in sparring and we all saw him dropped. I'd say he was in the worst shape of his reign and it's supported by the previous.

It's an open debate on what would have transpired if Tyson was in tip top shape. I wouldn't lose sleep over people thinking Douglas may still have won. His footwork that night may be the best i have seen for someone so big. He went after Tyson as he came in and crucially he went after him in combination quite often. His instincts were bang on and I've always been a huge admirer of his fundamentals - he was really well schooled.

 

There’s a lot here I respectfully agree with here. It’s certainly recorded he was sluggish in training and we have the film of the page knockdown..but it’s also okay for a champ not to peak in training. There are hours of Tyson sparring on YouTube. Some of it he’s getting schooled..he does look sluggish. I’m talking about workouts with Glen McCrory ahead of the Holmes fight. and against Oliver McCall it looks even too. but it’s just sparring. There is no mention how close to fight time it is. And that’s okay. A fighter can look sluggish in sparring (because he’s not supposed to peak) then stops sparring a week before the fight just as he’s getting better. Ali was usually terrible. I would be more concerned if a guy was hog fat and still looking sluggish. Which Tyson wasn’t. He was clearly working hard enough to get to ring weight. Which is probably all he was doing half the time anyway for fights he won. He just never shone in camp. But he’s a pro. And an all time great. And still within his prime. So I don’t think Douglas’s win should be diminished at all really. Not when Tyson beat Tucker after a bad camp. And probably others too.

 

You have taken a poll? I had Terrell edging it myself, but I think if the fight had gone another couple of rounds, Williams probably would have won. He was coming on at the end.

 

Swag--wasn't Terrell based in Chicago? When did he become a Philadelphia fighter? Terrell was born in Mississippi, but I think he lived in Chicago and that was his hometown and where he had most of his fights.

Williams was based in Texas, and from farther away from Philly than Chicago, but Chicago is still a long way away.

I think it was a neutral site fight, but am open to explanations about why it was not and why Terrell was the home town fighter.

It was Terrell's second fight in Philly. He had beaten Ernie Cab there three years earlier. It was also Williams' second fight in Philly. He had fought a prelim there 11 years earlier.

 

"Williams gave a younger Liston a better fight (both times) than Patterson ever did"

So did Valdes and DeJohn. DeJohn lasted longer in his fight with Liston than Williams did in two fights combined and he also had Liston bleeding. It would be interesting what a film of the Liston-DeJohn fight would do for DeJohn's historical rep.

 

"Machen drew with Terrell"

You must mean Williams. Terrell did the octopus act against an over-the-hill Machen and won in the dullest fight I have ever watched. The "crowd" gave both men standing boos when it was at last over.

 

"We do know Williams would've at least been a WBA champion"

We don't "know" that. It is your opinion.