Cleveland Big Cat Williams gets a title shot on Sept 26 1962 instead of Sonny Liston.

"Valdes was 244"

I have read a newspaper account of this fight which gives Valdes' weight as 224. More reasonable, but still heavy for him, the heaviest of his career I think, and probably an indication of sloppy training.

"Williams . . . never defeated anyone rated as highly as #2."

This is true but,

I question if Valdes deserved that high a rating. He was rated above Machen and Folley who had dominated him. A series of wins over second stringers got him there, plus the win over Charles years earlier. Valdes was 35 and on the cusp of a career decline.

More to the point, Alejandro Lavorante by the same criteria should be rated above Williams also, as his KO of Folley was more impressive than anything Williams, or for that matter Miteff and DeJohn, ever accomplished. And I would consider it more impressive than Powell KO'ing an old Valdes.

 

I stand corrected. Williams drew with Machen and both Machen and Williams lost to Terrell on points.

tell me, do you think Williams ever proved to be above Machens class?

 

Absolutely. The kayo Lavorante scored over Folley was more impressive than anything the gaggle of fighters like williams, miteff and DeJohn and Powell ever scored.

 

"a 2-1 underdog from Philadelphia"

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/100517232/hartford-courant/

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/100517045/the-bristol-daily-courier/

"Ernie Terrell from Philadelphia" Sources: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/100549224/oakland-tribune/ https://www.newspapers.com/image/724387091/?terms=ernie terrell philadelphia&match=1

 

What do Valdez and Dejohn have to do with anything?

Are they the ones being matched up in this thread? Could've swore it was Williams and Patterson.

Also regarding Dejohn having Liston bleeding do you have a source? Williams also made Liston bleed, broke his nose, and according to Liston himself nearly knocked him out.

Liston did say Dejohn was the 2nd hardest puncher he faced after Williams (I thought he would've said Valdez tbh).

 

And this was with Williams having confirmed prior injuries to both hands. And yes I agree Williams would've gotten a stoppage had it been a championship fight (which is why I would've favored him in a rubber for the WBA championship). Terrell wouldn't have made another 5 rounds, or maybe even 2.

 

Again I was responding to the claim by Choklab that if Williams won, it wouldn't mean much.

 

Boxrec had Valdez at 244 which was my source.

I agree Valdez should've never been number 2 but I never made the claim that "Williams never defeated anyone rated as highly as #2". Klompton did.

 

It wasn't not peaking so much as being plain bad. This is obvious. This close to the fight they need to be on song.

McCrory was schooling Tyson in footage? I'll chase it down tonight and have a look. Did McCrory or McCall sit him down?

They should look pretty sharp just before stopping sparring.

On purpose. He was a renowned slacker in sparring. He doesn't remotely compare to Tyson.

I'd be concerned if a superstar was looking sluggish and getting dropped on his ass. I'd be very concerned. Tyson was known for being brutal on sparring partners.

You are saying "probably others too" but you were claiming it freely just before. I'm going to take it that you don't know of any other occasions and were just guessing to strengthen your position. So you have Tyson's own claims on that one, from his book i believe.

Great win by Douglas, i said that. I also said maybe it didn't matter such was the brilliance of Douglas on the night. You can argue both ways.

Douglas was hot tho and you could easily use the film to show young heavyweight of a boxing or boxer/puncher style how it's done. Technically he was brilliant but he was also mean and hungry and determined to boss Tyson in his own consummate way.

 

He was clearly working hard enough to get to ring weight. Which is probably all he was doing half the time anyway for the title fights that he won. He just never shone in camp. But he’s a pro. And an all time great. And still within his prime. So I don’t think Douglas’s win should be diminished at all really. Not when Tyson beat Tucker after a bad camp. And probably for others too.

Douglas was way more active and also fresh off more consecutive competitive wins than anyone else Tyson actually beat in title fights aside from perhaps Smith and Tucker. That’s what we all overlooked. A lot of Tysons challengers were disadvantaged with inactivity by comparison. Years away from real competition when Tyson was mowing them down every couple of months. Then he gets this battle hardened challenger in the right mindset with all the right tools and perfect game plan.

 

There's all that continued speculation with zero evidence again. You've circled back.

Douglas was certainly the better prepared and fresher fighter, i'll agree on that.

And i'll leave it at that. We've gone in circles.

 

I know boxrec gives 244, but I think this is an error off the newspaper report. I am not going to try to look it up again. But it also doesn't make much sense to me that Valdes could put on so much weight to get up to 244 and then take it off so quickly. I don't think his weight was above 216 for any other fight. He was 212, I believe, for Liston.

 

I am in my eighties now and am not about to search for a source for this fight again. Unlike the Williams fights, which are on film, it seems rather obscure. What can't be doubted is that DeJohn lasted longer in one fight than Williams did in two combined. I have watched several times the Liston-Williams fights, and my take is Williams had one good round. DeJohn apparently was stopped on cuts and a bleeding and possibly broken nose, and was down twice, but apparently still had a lot of fight in him. A report has Liston hitting DeJohn when he was down and DeJohn getting up and going after Liston, but the ref stopping the fight. A Sports Illustrated article on Feb 10, 1964, backs this story up:

"Mike DeJohn staggered Liston, and later, when the fight was stopped, DeJohn had to be restrained from going after Liston once again."

I have never seen the Liston-DeJohn fight.

I did see the Liston-Valdes fight on TV back in 1959. It has been a long time and I haven't seen it since, but my memory is Valdes was holding his own and had Liston bleeding from a cut when he was caught against the ropes and taken out with a right. He was sitting on the canvas and got up but a second too late.

 

Terrell moved to Chicago as a boy. He was educated in Chicago. He fought 24 fights in Chicago compared to two in Philadelphia. Williams also fought two in Philadelphia.

This is from wiki:

"After retiring from boxing, he began a career as a record producer in Chicago. He ran unsuccessfully for alderman of Chicago 34th ward in 1987."

Terrell lived his life in Chicago. He was not a Philly native and didn't fight there often. I guess anyone can move somewhere and take up residence, but he certainly didn't have roots there and doesn't seem to have stayed there much.

The newspaper stories are evidence, but lazy journalists have been known to make or repeat mistakes.

 

Fair enough. Context is everything.