Cleveland Big Cat Williams gets a title shot on Sept 26 1962 instead of Sonny Liston.

Thanks for this insight. It’s great to hear that the fight was filmed and the hope is film will turn up one day.

I have read that one judge had Nino ahead after the two completed rounds, that Sonny had one eye tightly clamped shut. So it certainly must have been competitive before Sonny closed the show.

interestingly, months later, in his final bout, Nino was barely even on the scorecards of a rough scrap with Brian London before Brian was pulled out on a minor cut. That fight is on YouTube.

 

I don't know if the Valdes-Liston fight was filmed. I saw it live on TV on the Wedneday night fights with Jack Drees.

 

This is all true, but Terrell had relocated to Philadelphia a matter of months before the second Williams fight, which is why he was introduced in the ring as "formerly from Chicago, now fighting out of Philadelphia." Not exactly a hometown hero, I agree.

 

Liston was not bleeding in any of the reports, I saw. As a matter of fact looking at the reports, Dejohn was squatting down on purpose seemingly to avoid punishment and didn't go to the body at all.

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/100609903/wisconsin-state-journal/

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/100610054/the-news-journal/

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/100610181/st-louis-post-dispatch/

Anyways, what is his relevance to the thread? Why bring him up or his performances? He's not one of the 2 participants in this thread is he?

 

Chok you never answered my question, so I'll rephrase it to add Machen. Who did the best against Terrell? Williams, Machen, or Chuvalo?

 

Is this what it has come to? Asking whom among the guys who lost to Ernie Terrell gave him the closest losing effort? It’s a bit like asking who did best losing against somebody else who didn’t matter very much.

Who gave Greg Page a harder fight George Chaplin or Renaldo Snipes?

Since you asked, Williams pushed Terrell pretty close in a rough fight. But Terrell still lost. Chuvalo was pretty rough on Terrell too. And he still lost. Then there’s Machen. Gave Terrell A boring fight if ever there was one. “Machen, who said he thought he won, mentioned the possibility of a return bout. Most everyone shuddered.”

Does it really matter?

it matters about as much as George Chaplin or Renaldo snipes mattered to the 1980s heavyweight scene.

 

It also says DeJohn was under instruction from his corner to take a knee when he got tired. we saw this in the Chuvalo fight. So it seems to have been a theme with DeJohn.

The report also says DeJohn “showed the result of lack of training” that he had “been doing alright until round four and even had Liston in some trouble in the fourth but after that he was finished”

To me, it appears DeJohn did do better than Williams against Liston.

So Maybe you have been boosting the wrong guy all this time?

 

Since there are lots of digressions on this thread, here’s another one. As well as both losing to Liston, they both had disqualification wins over Dick (the billy goat) Richardson, the 50/60’s version of Fireman Jim Flynn.
In a rematch Mike stopped him, but The Big Cat, in his rematch with Richardson, pulled out close to the fight, as he had had a “message from beyond” not to fight!

 

Yes, hardly an acceptable explanation was it?

 

You never gave me a name.... or mentioned Williams knock out of Terrell. No explanation. Just answer the question I asked. Who did better against Terrell out of the aforementioned 3 options?

 

Actually that's not what happened. In their first fight, Dejohn was cut over both eyes, his forehead, and had to rally for a very close decision, It was close enough for the hometown crowd and Richardson himself to think he deserved the decision.

Dejohn himself said the following about Richardson

• "They told me Richardson was a soft touch. He wasn't. He's the best I've ever met, and he'd lick a lot of fighters back home." -Mike DeJohn

The rematch was when Richardson was disqualified after BOTH men were warned for butting. So your statement that Dejohn stopped him is incorrect and you had the order of fights wrong.
[quote ]but The Big Cat, in his rematch with Richardson, pulled out close to the fight, as he had had a “message from beyond” not to fight![/QUOTE]
Williams dominated Richardson in his bout and was on route to a KO.

"Cleveland Williams of the U.S. defeated Dick Richardson in their scheduled 10 round bout tonight when the Welsh boxer was disqualified in the 4th round for butting. In the 1st round the Welshman forced the Yank to back away from a flurry of blows. After that, Williams took charge. He floored Richardson for a count of two in the 1st round just after the Welsh boxer drew his first warning for butting. Blood ran from a gash on Williams' cheek as he sat in his corner between the 1st and 2nd rounds. He rocked Richardson with a left to the jaw in the 2nd and halted a Richardson flurry with two uppercuts in the 3rd. The American's cheek began bleeding again after Richardson was warned for butting. Then came the 4th and Richardson butted himself right out of the fight." -United Press

• Referee Frank Wilson had warned Richardson in the 1st, 3rd and 4th rounds before finally DQ'ing him.

You seem to be implying Williams was scared of Richardson. I don't know why Williams backed out (in a book he said he had a dream he killed Richardson) but it certainly wasn't fear. If he fought Liston again despite being brutally knocked out, why would he be scared of someone he'd floored and dominated? Chok has been avoiding this question so maybe you can answer it.

Also in your comparisons between Dejohn and Williams you seem to have missed out on some common opponents.

I'll save you the trouble.

Ernie Cab. Knocked out cold by Williams in 3 rounds (just months prior he made it to 7 with Liston). Decisioned Dejohn

Eddie Machen: Williams had a majority draw with Machen in a fight where one judge had him clearly ahead, as did his hometown crowd, and the AP. Dejohn was dominated in both bouts and stopped in the 2nd which was months before Machen fought Williams.

Billy Daniels: Dejohn was dominated in every sense of the word.

"A right to the chin in the 1st round, sent DeJohn down for a nine-count. He was floored for a 2nd time for no-count, again, in the 1st round. In the 3rd round, another rigth hand to the chin put him down for another nine-count. A right uppercut floored DeJohn for a 4th time in the 9th round, he was subsequently put down for a fifth time in the same round by a left hook; both times for nine counts. The 10th round had barely begun, when Daniels floored DeJohn for a sixth time, on a right hand. After this knockdown, the referee stopped the contest."

Against Williams Daniels decisively lost their first bout, and in the 2nd bout was dominated by Williams so badly he was never the same again."

Ponce De Leon also went the distance with Dejohn, and was knocked out in 2 by Williams but this was very early in both men's careers.

The only common opponent Dejohn did better against Williams was Miteff who was extremely green when he fought Dejohn and turned pro just a year prior.

 

Liston certainly didn't think so. He's gone on record saying Williams was a more powerful fighter, faster, and a better boxer. He also viewed Williams as his gatekeeper and second only to himself.

Liston wasn't seriously hurt against Dejohn, (despite Edward's unverified claims he was bleeding) who didn't even go to the body while by Liston's own admission he thought Williams was going to knock him out.

I'll repost what I said to Crixus, as I know you have memory issues so you'll likely have to see something twice to register it.
Performances against common opponents.

Ernie Cab. Knocked out cold by Williams in 3 rounds (just months prior he made it to 7 with Liston). Decisioned Dejohn

Eddie Machen: Williams had a majority draw with Machen in a fight where one judge had him clearly ahead, as did his hometown crowd, and the AP. Dejohn was dominated in both bouts and stopped in the 2nd which was months before Machen fought Williams.

Billy Daniels: Dejohn was dominated in every sense of the word.

"A right to the chin in the 1st round, sent DeJohn down for a nine-count. He was floored for a 2nd time for no-count, again, in the 1st round. In the 3rd round, another rigth hand to the chin put him down for another nine-count. A right uppercut floored DeJohn for a 4th time in the 9th round, he was subsequently put down for a fifth time in the same round by a left hook; both times for nine counts. The 10th round had barely begun, when Daniels floored DeJohn for a sixth time, on a right hand. After this knockdown, the referee stopped the contest."

Against Williams Daniels decisively lost their first bout, and in the 2nd bout was dominated by Williams so badly he was never the same again."

Ponce De Leon also went the distance with Dejohn, and was knocked out in 2 by Williams but this was very early in both men's careers.

The only common opponent Dejohn did better against Williams was Miteff who was extremely green when he fought Dejohn and turned pro just a year prior.

Who did better against these common opponents, and who was the superior contender? Please actually answer this question instead of giving me the runaround.

 

Williams dominated Richardson in his bout and was on route to a KO.

"Cleveland Williams of the U.S. defeated Dick Richardson in their scheduled 10 round bout tonight when the Welsh boxer was disqualified in the 4th round for butting. In the 1st round the Welshman forced the Yank to back away from a flurry of blows. After that, Williams took charge. He floored Richardson for a count of two in the 1st round just after the Welsh boxer drew his first warning for butting. Blood ran from a gash on Williams' cheek as he sat in his corner between the 1st and 2nd rounds. He rocked Richardson with a left to the jaw in the 2nd and halted a Richardson flurry with two uppercuts in the 3rd. The American's cheek began bleeding again after Richardson was warned for butting. Then came the 4th and Richardson butted himself right out of the fight." -United Press

• Referee Frank Wilson had warned Richardson in the 1st, 3rd and 4th rounds before finally DQ'ing him.

You seem to be implying Williams was scared of Richardson. I don't know why Williams backed out (in a book he said he had a dream he killed Richardson) but it certainly wasn't fear. If he fought Liston again despite being brutally knocked out, why would he be scared of someone he'd floored and dominated? Chok has been avoiding this question so maybe you can answer it.

Also in your comparisons between Dejohn and Williams you seem to have missed out on some common opponents.

I'll save you the trouble.

Ernie Cab. Knocked out cold by Williams in 3 rounds (just months prior he made it to 7 with Liston). Decisioned Dejohn

Eddie Machen: Williams had a majority draw with Machen in a fight where one judge had him clearly ahead, as did his hometown crowd, and the AP. Dejohn was dominated in both bouts and stopped in the 2nd which was months before Machen fought Williams.

Billy Daniels: Dejohn was dominated in every sense of the word.

"A right to the chin in the 1st round, sent DeJohn down for a nine-count. He was floored for a 2nd time for no-count, again, in the 1st round. In the 3rd round, another rigth hand to the chin put him down for another nine-count. A right uppercut floored DeJohn for a 4th time in the 9th round, he was subsequently put down for a fifth time in the same round by a left hook; both times for nine counts. The 10th round had barely begun, when Daniels floored DeJohn for a sixth time, on a right hand. After this knockdown, the referee stopped the contest."

Against Williams Daniels decisively lost their first bout, and in the 2nd bout was dominated by Williams so badly he was never the same again."

Ponce De Leon also went the distance with Dejohn, and was knocked out in 2 by Williams but this was very early in both men's careers.

The only common opponent Dejohn did better against Williams was Miteff who was extremely green when he fought Dejohn and turned pro just a year prior.[/QUOTE]

Yes, you’re right about DeJohn’s 2 fights with Richardson. I was going by memory, forgetting it was a points win. The Welshman resorted to his usual ways when up against it, as he did with Williams and later, Brian London.
My post still stands, in that both boxers lost to Liston and beat Richardson by DQ, nothing earth shattering, no comparisons, just trivia.
Regarding Williams pulling out of the second Dick fight. It was pointless, given Richardson, being outclassed the first time. Then the unique “message” explanation.
If you want me to make a comparison of their respective fights with Richardson, then clearly Williams comes out well ahead and clearly he had nothing to fear, easy money, hence the mystery of the “message.”

 

I have no idea why Williams didn't take the fight. Maybe he did have a dream he killed him. Wouldn't be surprising considering, he beat Sonny Banks so badly it might've contributed to his death, he ruptured a blood vessel in Young Jack Johnson's forehead, and he beat Billy Daniels so bad, he was never the same again.

I don't understand why so many think he was terrified of a man he'd dominated, knocked down, soundly beaten when he went back for seconds after Liston brutally knocked him.

Doug Jones, and Zora Folley both turned down fights with Williams but nobody makes implications or accuses them of being scared.

 

I have never come across anything re’ Williams being scared of Richardson, it’s an absurd thought. Always put the message down to wackiness!
Richardson was, in his day, at best, the fourth British heavy. He was a mile behind in the London fight before, as Brian said “sticking his nut on me.” Cooper stopped him twice, Valdes stoped him, while Erskine and Pastrano ran rings round him.
Then lo and behold he caught Mildenberger in the first round, inexplicable! But soon after, order was restored by Ingo in the 8th.
I think my low opinion of the billy goat may be seeping through!
Haven’t checked any record books, just memory on this digression, by the way.