Cleveland Big Cat Williams gets a title shot on Sept 26 1962 instead of Sonny Liston.

Yeah the Mildenberger KO stood out to me a lot. Mildenberger was never truly knocked out by anyone else other than a brutal KO loss to Leotis Martin at the end of his career.

 

I watched that fight. And it was even after 6 rounds. Daniels hurt Williams in the first round. Williams hurt Daniels in the 6th round and while he pulled away a bit after that it was no beating at all. It really wasn’t.

Altogether, the year he first fought Williams, Daniels fought 5 times that year against 5 genuine contenders. Which was some scheduling. He went 1-4.

Sure, nobody knocked Daniels out until after he lost to Williams. But it’s not as simple as saying Williams sent him over the edge.

Daniels had only fought 3 name opponents before meeting Williams. Going 2-1. Then His opponents got better.

Daniels, a New Yorker, was on the road. After this loss to Williams, He fought Jones in New Jersey. A close fight that the crowd booed the result of. He then fought #7 Zora Foley in Canada. Then Mildenburger in Germany. This was on the spin after a win over Alongi and the points loss to Williams in Miami.

The next year daniels did beat Doug Jones in a rematch but was matched just as hard as the previous year and likewise lost more than he won again. The opponents included Williams again the European champ and Thad Spencer.

You can say “he was never the same again” or you can say he “never got a break” again.

 

I stopped taking your scoring abilities seriously when you gave Williams 1 round against Terrell in their rematch.

1. I was referring to the 2nd fight.

2. Before he fought Williams, he was undefeated barring a loss to the GOAT where he gave an excellent account of himself.

"punishing Billy Daniels so much in a 10-round decision that Daniels has never been the same fighter since" https://www.newspapers.com/clip/57246919/simpsons-leader-times

I agree. He faced the no. 1 contender after facing Williams... and won! Excellent point Chok!

Yes the fight Jones won. Most in attendances, and Jones himself along with his manager thought Daniels deserved the verdict.

Before facing Williams the first time, he was coming off a win over a contender in Mike Dejohn. Before facing Williams the 2nd time, he beat the number one contender in Jones. After facing Williams he was immediately losing to men by the name of Franco De Piccoli.

Oh and multiple people who saw him, have stated that Williams beat him so badly, he wasn't the same fighter.

Williams quite literally hit him so hard he became a barber https://www.newspapers.com/clip/100741017/the-honolulu-advertiser/

But also, none of your post disputes my main point that Williams did much better against Daniels than Dejohn did. I'd ask you if you agree, but I know you'll duck the question like the coward you are because it doesn't align with your agenda.

 

Thank you for posting this article. But one fact it got wrong was the location of the bullet that Williams got shot with.

 

Franco De Piccoli was the 1960 HW Gold medal winner in Rome and the reason Cassius Clay did not
Compete at heavyweight for those games.

I don’t think you knew this.

 

"What is his relevance to the thread?"

DeJohn lasted longer in one fight than Williams did in two combined. I would like to see a film of the Liston-DeJohn fight. I have watched all five rounds between Liston and Williams numerous times, and in my judgment Williams had one good round.

The reports on Liston-DeJohn are contradictory, but that is often what history boils down to. A film would give a basis for a solid judgment on what sort of performance DeJohn put up and how he did in contrast to Williams.

As is, I don't think we can draw a certain conclusion, but that DeJohn lasted twice as long is a fact. If nothing else, DeJohn might have displayed a better chin than Williams.

 

"Miteff was extremely green when he fought DeJohn"

Miteff already had wins over McBride, Besmanoff, Mederos, and Holman. DeJohn knocked him out in October of 1957. Miteff would be ranked 9th at the end of the year in The Ring's annual rankings. Miteff would out point Valdes in February of 1958.

I don't see it fair to dismiss Miteff as green. He had done more than Terrell had done up to the time Williams beat Ernie.

 

A very good point. Miteff had over 125 Amateur fights too. According to his wife Miteff was never the same after the DeJohn fight. In Argentina he had been a revelation but once in America he was fed to a lot of bigger American fighters. A larger part of Miteffs career was against contenders when you think about it. He was probably rushed and badly matched really.

 

Hilarious, you're ignoring the bigger point of the article (as you've been doing with my posts the entire thread) and instead focusing on the miniscule details they got wrong.

Should I count all the facts you got wrong?

 

No, I didn't. See how I address the question and answer it directly, instead of ignoring it like a dishonest coward? Take notes.

Anyways his amateur success evidently never transferred into his professional careers. He beat nobody of worth except for a badly faded Daniels.

 

Weren't you criticizing Williams in another thread for beating Holman "at the end of his career"? Holman's fight prior to Williams was against Miteff.

Miteff had been boxing for a year. Terrell had been boxing for five. I'm not one of those that buy this idea that Terrell was hopelessly green when he fought Williams despite boxing for 5 years, never having been knocked out or even lost decisively, and then as soon as Williams knocks him out, he suddenly turns a new corner and a world-class fighter within months. It's always been ridiculous to me.

 

I asked his relevance to the thread, because he's not either fighter in the thread title is he?

Well the conclusion we can draw is Williams had Liston in much more trouble than Dejohn did, nearly knocking him out by Liston's own admission, and Williams was also a much harder punch as Liston has stated countless times.
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/100711470/nanaimo-daily-news/

Without film this means what exactly? Peralta lasted longer against Foreman than Chuvalo did.

Liston certainly didn't think so. He said that Cleveland Williams and Johnny Summerlin were the toughest fighters he'd been in the ring with. https://www.newspapers.com/clip/100711854/the-shreveport-journal/

If Dejohn was so much more durable than Williams, why was he floored three times and knocked out by Machen who couldn't floor or even beat Williams?

Better yet, why couldn't he beat or even go the distance with Billy Daniels?

 

Cassius Clay didn't compete at heavyweight because of Franco De Piccoli? Where's that coming from?