Cleveland Big Cat Williams gets a title shot on Sept 26 1962 instead of Sonny Liston.

You're right. I can't understand. What the **** is this even supposed to mean?

Regardless, here is how others viewed the 10th round.
"I thought Williams won the 10th. He landed a huge right. Terrell was holding quite a bit by then. They scored against holding back then. As they should."

"You are the only person i have ever seen in my life give this round to Terrell. All Terrell wanted to do was run and clinch and he was booed loudly by the crowd at various intervals. Every time Williams got within punching range he raced forward clinching. Ridiculously negative.

The boxrec report states - "Williams won the 10th round over a tiring Terrell, who was physically exhausted at the end."

"Round 10: Williams

Big round for Williams as Terrell is a spent force. Williams lands some big shots here and Ernie is hanging for dear life trying to avoid being knocked out.

Williams buckles Terrell and literally chases him around the ring trying to close the show."

 

Having just now watched the fight, it was a very close affair that could have gone either way.

However by round 10 Terrell was a spent force and Williams was still fighting strong.

Had this been a 15 round defence for Williams I think he'd have finished the job.

 

Judging by the results of both bouts particularly round 10 in the 2nd fight, I highly doubt Terrell's making it the distance in a championship fight. He was exhausted, rocked, on the verge of being stopped, and held on for dear life. Williams also wasn't even 100% for this bout either.

 

Terrell came out strong for the first two minustes of round 9 which was enough to clearly win that round imo even though he slowed down in the last minute. Round 10 both fighters were tired and neither landed much of consequence, but it was Williams's round since he was the only one trying to make anything happen.

Hard to know what to read into this for a 15-rounder, since both men would have paced themselves differently. Both looked pretty spent at the final bell, but you're not supposed to leave much in the tank at the end of a close fight. For all that I know the 15th of the rubber could have looked like the final round here.

You might favour Williams for the rubber, sure. I can see that. I made it clear why I'm leaning slightly toward Terrell, but it's not a clear case in any which way.

I really can't see how one could say with any confidence that Williams beats everyone except Liston and Ali up to the point he got shot in 1964. Not at all. Except for Terrell I also see guys like Machen, Patterson, Folley and Chuvalo having a say in the matter 1963-1964. Jones at his best could well take him. I don't understand what this whole notion that Williams was a level above those guys is coming from, It really is a mystery to me.

He'd win some and lose some imo. Nothing more to it than that.

 

You're misunderstanding the context I think.

If he beats Patterson he's champ right? The only people I favour to unseat him as champ are Liston and Ali.

Doesn't mean he'd beat everyone, but I don't expect anyone to be beating him as champ.

Like the old Bruno vs Marciano matchups, maybe Bruno wins, maybe Rocky wins. But put Bruno in a time machine so he's born in that era, is he really going to be the man who ends Rocky's unbeaten record? Is he balls.

This was a good competitive era. Doesn't mean I have to favour good competitive fighters to take the crown from Big Cat.

 

Williams was not overly tired. Certainly not to the extent that Terrell was, and he certainly wasn't the one holding on for dear life to avoid a stoppage.

I'd be more confident in Williams keeping up with his pace than Terrell. If Terrell slowed down his output more (which he would have to do to pace himself) he definitely would've been behind imo.

It also has to be taken into consideration Williams hands were bruised going into the fight, and it was in danger of being cancelled.

Fair enough.

1. Luf didn't say that he beats everyone except Liston. He said the only person good enough to beat him was Liston.

2. Machen tried and failed to beat Williams and he was a hell of a lot better than Chuvalo.

2. Chuvalo is definitely the outlier here. He was nowhere near Williams level at their peaks, neither in rankings, how they were regarded in real time, nor performances against common opponents. Williams absolutely dominated Alex Miteff. Miteff outboxed Chuvalo and held Chuvalo to a draw, and later lost an as thin as you can get SD by a half of a point in Chuvalo's hometown where the referee failed to deduct a point for a low blow which would've made Miteff the winner.

Even other posters critical of Williams and who find him overrated such as Matt, and 70sfan favor Williams over Chuvalo at their bests.

3. After Terrell barely "avenged" his KO loss with an SD, he'd immediately go on to widely outpoint Folley, who's chin was suspect and likely wouldn't hold up to Williams' power shots.

4. Jones turned down an offer to fight Williams for $40,000. They could've fought in the WBA eliminator but Jones couldn't even get past Daniels, who Williams subsequently dominated so bad he was never the same afterwards.

5. It's no secret Patterson's chin, while not the glass everyone makes it out to be, wasn't exactly made of granite. Williams gave a younger Liston a better fight (both times) than Patterson ever did, and Liston held more respect, and thought higher of Williams than he did either Patterson, Johannson, or anyone around. He also never fought a puncher the caliber of Williams, besides Liston and we all know what happened there.

 

You wrote: "I firmly believe he would have beaten Patterson and Ingo. And actually I think over a 12 round distance the only person good enough to beat him before he was shot was Liston."

This implies to me that you think he was a level above anyone but Liston. I see no basis whatsoever for that claim.

 

I know what it implies to you which is exactly why I clarified it for you.

 

Also, I am not Williams' biggest "fan". He's not even in my top 5 favorite heavyweights.

5. Muhammad Ali





4. Evander Holyfield
3. Floyd Patterson


2. Joe Frazier
1. Sonny Liston

 

1. Very weird distinction. If no one is good enough to beat him, they don't beat him. And "firm favourite" over Ingo and Floyd suggests that he's clearly above those and you got a draw with Machen to base that on.

2. Chuvalo was near Williams in the ranking when Williams was ranked at his highest. The KO over Jones was also a better result than Williams ever had. So with his chin and stamina I can see him outlasting Williams over 12. Not saying he would, but I can see it. More highly regarded says who? Chuvalo was getting lots of praise after stopping Jones, more than he was worth, but it was how he was regarded.

3. Folley's chin might not hold for Williams, that's true. Stylistically the fight might favour Williams, butI think Folley overall was the better fighter so I won't write him off.

4. I said Jones at his very best. Admittely, that was a short spell. But against Folley and Ali he was very good and I can see that version beating Williams. But I can see the opposite two. It was a short window, but the one I specified. I'd like a source on him turning down Williams. Lot is claimed without sources concerning him.

5. Ingo didn't have William's muscles but he was a more dangerous puncher. Funny that you mention that Williams stayed upright for a round or two longer than Liston, but not that Floyd did better than him against Machen.

A fighter who's best result is a draw with Machen is given a "I firmly believe he would have beaten Patterson and Ingo. And actually I think over a 12 round distance the only person good enough to beat him before he was shot was Liston."

For me that's not supported by what actually happened. Not at all.

 

Changed I would say. But that no one else would be favourite to unseat him as champ... Sure, I can see that.

 

Say whatever you want, it's your prerogative. This is a thread about Williams getting a title shot at Patterson. I already picked him to win.

 

Terrell already had the fight won, he scored his most decisive round in round 9, where he hurt and bullied Williams. all he had to do was stop Williams working. and he did. It probably was a Williams round but in the context of the flow of the fight..both were tired, not much effective work and Williams was losing till then

This is the way I see it. Wasn’t that effective but Williams was at least trying so that’s fair enough.

Williams was hanging on but not to avoid being stopped. He was ahead and was coasting his way to the end. Preserving his lead.

 

So overrating Williams continues here? I think I should find Williams analogy from the other era and hype him up to the same degree.

 

He said nobody was good enough to beat him in that time period and Machen didn't. Terrell did, but it was a close controversial SD in his hometown against a Williams who was not 100%, as I've stated multiple times, which you refuse to address.

"The KO over Jones was a better result than Williams ever had." Billy Daniels, came close to replicating it months prior when he defeated Jones by an SD.

He may or may not have been the better fighter, but he'd been beaten by lesser fighters such as Lavorante

So Jones very best is all of two fights.
One of which he lost, the other one one he was knocked down..... conveniently leaving out his losses to Daniels and Chuvalo.

Regarding a source, I thought SolomonDeedes already provided one? If not, I'll be happy to find something for you.

Maybe because Machen was a shell of himself upon his return from the Looney bin?

Agree to disagree. I believe Ali would've beaten him as well, but just Liston and Ali at that point. Hardly anything to be ashamed of. Two H2H monsters, one of which, the GOAT.

The no. 2 contender proved he couldn't when he drew with Williams. A majority decision where the majority of the crowd (admittingly they were in Texas) one judge, and the AP thought Williams won.

Maybe Patterson wins, but he fought nobody like Williams with the exception of one person, and it didn't end well for him. I would love for Patterson to prove me wrong, and I wouldn't be very surprised if he did so.

Ingo's resume is extremely thin at heavyweight. Maybe he wins, but I would not favor him. I certainly don't think he can take the shots Williams and Liston took from each other.