Cleveland Big Cat Williams gets a title shot on Sept 26 1962 instead of Sonny Liston.

What haven't I adressed? That he wasn't 100%? Excuses are literally a dime a dozen, so that needs a good source.

Again, what are you talking about? I've specified twice that very version of Jones.

If William's defended his title against him, it would likely be the one who had beaten Folley. I e the one that faced Ali.

He seemed to have a very short peak window for some reason, but in those two fights he really showed up.

What I said was that version of Jones could be difficult. Twice. And you answer with bringing up other versions. In answer to what?

That was actually in the fall of 1962. Around the time he faced Williams.

With "like Williams" you mean powerful left hook? Because he beat more dangerous KO punchers than Williams, like Ingo and Quarry. Even Chuvalo had better KO's.

His resume is thicker than Williams. His right was more lethal than William's left hook. My guess is that Ingo's right would hit home before William's left hook, but I wouldn't be chocked if William got the KO either.


I think I'll leave it there for now.

 

thin? He knocked flat the best two heavyweights in the world in back to back fights. You can’t do better than that.

 

One of the very few HW champs to beat everyone he ever fought.

 

It's better than Williams though.

 

Interesting. If lucky, might be able to pick him out among the assorted and vast sparring footage available from back then - a very tall (taller than Ali) , rangy guy - which would help for recognition.

 

That makes sense Rich.

This channel is great for all things Ali - there’s a lot of raw, unedited footage - which you have to plough through - sometimes the quality isn’t perfect - but I don’t mind that, especially when you discover a gem portion of film after a little bit of searching.

[url]https://youtube.com/c/muhammadalilargestcollectionintheworld[/url]

It was annoying when Jacobs got to a lot of the old films and edited out parts that would interest true fans of the sport.

Thereafter, all you got to see were the same old Jacob edits - even Johnson v Burns, there is actually a bit more footage after the point at which they claimed the cameras were stopped. Unfortunately I haven’t seen the uncut, alternate version for years now.

 

Long day today. Will address this tomorrow.

 

Yeah he was tough for sure with a good wallop Rich. Apparently hard outside the ring too.

 

You are absolutely correct. My apologies
How have you fared against boxers?"
"I've held my ground. I've beaten some good ones, the best were Curley Lee and Young Jack Johnson."
"You have to be kidding. You mean they were better than Ernie Terrell?"
"Terrell likes to make love. I don't consider him a fighter. He likes to grab you, hold you tight, and dance." "You knocked him out in seven rounds in 1962 and then he beat you in '63. How did that happen?"
"I hurt my hands on Billy Daniels on March 9. A couple of weeks later I banged them up on Young Jack Johnson. I couldn't throw a punch without a stabbing pain going through my arm. But the promoter had set up this return match. We didn't want to let him down. It was a mistake. Even so, I thought I licked him, but it was in Philadelphia, his home town and he got a hometown decision."

Source:: [url]https://www.newspapers.com/clip/99985978/the-los-angeles-times/[/url]

• Williams scheduled bout on April 13th with Ernie Terrell was placed in jeopardy due to Williams' injuring both hands during the bout. But the Terrell-Williams bout took place as planned. Source: [url]https://boxrec.com/media/index.php/Cleveland_Williams_vs._Young_Jack_Johnson[/url]

Their was also talk about this immeadiately after the Johnson bout before he faced Terrell so it can't be dismissed as post-loss excuse.

Heavyweight contender Cleveland Williams scored a costly technical knockout over Young Jack Johnson Tuesday night in the final round of a scheduled 10-rounder Williams, signed for a television bout against Ernie Terrel Apr. 13, injured both hands in the wild brawl with Johnson.

Source: [url]https://www.newspapers.com/clip/99984956/des-moines-tribune/[/url]

Here's another source where they also mention trying to get Doug Jones, and Billy Daniels.

I don't see any reason to think this version of Jones would be much different than the one who lost to Daniels a year later, when he lost to Jones, other than the fact that he took the fight at last minute, but Jones himself said it didn't effect him.

Incorrect, he was found with a gun and suicide note in December of '62. He faced Williams in July. His failure to beat Williams likely started his mental issues, as he knew his chances of a title shot were all but gone, which developed into a full-blown mental breakdown when he couldn't afford to get presents for his family.

This is just absurd. Ingo, Chuvalo, and Quarry were nothing like Williams and you know it. The inclusion of Quarry was especially baffling. He was not a "more dangerous KO puncher than Williams" at all. Most of his noteworthy wins were decisions. His only decent KO was that of Foster, who never beat a ranked fighter to my knowledge and Shavers which was an excellent KO, but Shavers was open as a bar door.

They are in two completely different atmospheres when it comes to power. It's like saying Norton beat Quarry so he should have no problems with Shavers.

Like Patterson, I don't think he takes the shots Williams and Liston took from each other, and stays upright. Williams was an excellent boxer, had an underrated jab, blazing fast hands, and a monster left hook. He could either box him, or KO him imo. Though I wouldn't be surprised if Ingo won as well.

 

A lot of easier to do that when you're not facing a prime Liston twice, and a Peak Ali.

 

Terrell literally wasn't even throwing punches in the last minute of the fight or so.

"He was ahead and coasting his way to the end"

Do you have any proof he knew he was ahead? Williams visibly buckled him, then he started hugging him like he was his mana. I highly doubt he'd done that to preserve his lead because he more than likely knew, it was a very close fight, and he was certainly going to lose the round to any remotely objective viewer (Something you clearly are not).