Cleveland Big Cat Williams gets a title shot on Sept 26 1962 instead of Sonny Liston.

Said I'd leave this discussion, but this is just what irks me about William's fans. How on earth is it absurd to call them more dangerous KO punchers when they KO'd better opponents. Yes, William's probably had more raw power in his left hook (well, maybe not more than in Ingo's right), but that doesn't automatically make you a more dangerous puncher. In the end what matters is how a fighter can make use of his power and they showed they could do it against elite comp. Williams didn't. Some here are way too much in love with his power.

With that said, thanks for the link to the article. Such things are always appreciated.

That he injured his hands in the previous fight does lend some credibility to them bothering him, but one should remember that hand issues is very common in boxing (Ali had it all through his second career, so I suppose it could be used as an excuse for every loss he had in the 70's if one applies oneself) and fighters do tend to make the most of whatever problem they had going in to a fight they lost. I'm very sceptical against such things.

EDIT: Watched the whole fight and Williams is going full tilt with just about every punch. No sign whatsoever of his hands bothering him.

I didn't see the link about the Jones thing. Was it there?

And with Machen? He's all fine and dandy, then a draw with Williams (that you say was so highly regarded) just destroys him mentally and he's a wreck ever since, despite coming back to rack up a series of wins that put him as one of the top contenders? Come on.

 

well the evidence of round 9 clearly shows what Terrell must have thought was a big round for him. He really backed up, pushed and manhandled Williams between landing quite a big combination. I mean, he gave Williams a shellacking that round.. Off the back of that big round Terrell must have decided all he had to do was out score williams and stay away in the next round to seal a victory. This is self evident.

Terrell threw 28 punches in the last round (He probably landed only half) but it included Five single jabs before Williams even attempted his first punch! Across the round At least 3 or 4 Terrell jabs were clear scoring blows that landed at long range.


Williams may have been chasing but from my count he threw just 21 punches and landed only about 5 of them. Mostly glancing blows. One of which was admittedly the hardest punch landed that round..a right hand just before a clinch, but it’s literally one clean blow from just a handful of landed blows between a lot of smothering and untidy mauling.

In round 10, Terrell was looking only to score. Whereas Williams was looking to kayo. But Terrell did score and Williams did not kayo. Williams landed one good punch and a few glancing blows. Terrell landed more clean scoring jabs. Albeit whilst backpedaling.

Maybe it is more fair to give that round to Williams. But it’s certainly not that decisive.

 

I scored Terrell-Williams now and had it a draw. Very close fight with most rounds being competitive. Good fight as well. Shame we never got to see a third one.

 

Both Terrel and Williams looked good in the fight. And as noted, Terrell beat Folley by clear decision in his next fight so he had likely grown into a world class fighter for his rematch with Williams, even though he was unranked going in.

Another what if is how things would have played out had Williams not been shot. A third fight with Terrell and if he wins that a fight with Ali down the line.

 

I think a rubber match would have told us little.

It would either have told us Williams would win the series and go no further than Terrell would Or that Terrell himself would have went as far as he did go.

Basically a trilogy between Ernie and Williams would have produced only a Terrell level fighter.

At the end of the day Machen drew with Terrell. And Machen, as good as he was, falls into the good elite fighter level and just below champion.

 

Yeah so we got Terrell vs Machen instead of Terrell vs Williams III for the vacant title. Machen having drawn with Williams was a decent replacement for Williams wasn’t he?

like I said previously the vacant WBA title produced a Terrell level fighter. Even if it produced Williams, he’s still a Terrell level fighter himself.

personally, though it was not an easy fight, Terrell seemed one step ahead of Williams in their second fight.

 

I think even if Williams replicated the first result in a potential third fight in 1964 he only goes on to replace Terrell. He becomes Terrell if you like. Gets the fights Terrell had up to the Ali fight in 66.

The problem I have with Williams replicating the first result with Terrell is Terrell not allowing Williams to replicate it in the second fight. Terrell knew to hug, maul and smother any momentum out of Williams. He wasn’t going to give him that chance again.

The other problem I have is the evidence of the Billy Daniels film.

Against Daniels Williams was guilty of waiting too long and going to sleep in the the rounds following the ones he hurt Daniels in. Pointing to Him not being able to finish off better fighters and as points results against Terrell and Machen show he wasn’t capable of building up a decent lead boxing with them either.

Williams was dangerous in spurts but was a bit of a one trick pony. After he hurt a guy he took too long to regroup. The good fighters knew how to contain him. He might get lucky with Doug Jones as Chuvalo had but he might just as easily get outpointed too. Then against Chuvalo, the guy he might have defended against had he beaten Terrell, we might have got the fight they had together many years later. I don’t see Williams stopping Chuvalo and on the strength of georges work rate against Patterson I don’t see Williams out working George either.

 

Machen's return to the top of the ratings after his breakdown wasn't really anything to do with the wins he was scoring. Rather like Williams regaining the #3 spot after his gunshot wound, Machen beat a handful of unexceptional opponents and was given the benefit of the doubt - ranked based on achievements from earlier in his career.

Teddy Brenner was at his fight with Floyd Patterson and was scathing about his performance:

"He had no zip, no reflexes. He was just pushing his punches. He had nothing... He wasn't even 25 per cent of the old Machen. He looked like a guy who was sleep walking... It wouldn't have drawn more than $15,000 or $20,000 any place in the United States. Patterson says he's willing to fight his way back to a title fight. I think he should fight someone like Doug Jones or Cleveland Williams."

https://pasteboard.co/WDCHykdimwSy.png

 

1. I see no reason to say Quarry was a better KO puncher than Williams. Their common opponents between them off the top of my head were Miteff, Daniels, Foster, Chuvalo, and Machen.

Machen: Neither knocked him out. Williams actually did much better than a peak Machen than Quarry did with a past prime one. Granted Quarry was green but Machen was undoubtedly further removed from his best and never won a fight after that. I doubt even a prime Quarry doesn't lose to Machen.

Chuvalo: Neither knocked him out, and he actually knocked Quarry out and failed to do the same against post-shooting Williams.

Billy Daniels: Quarry knocked him out in 1, and he went the distance with Williams twice. But Daniels was a shell of himself by then. Williams ruined him in their second bout and he was never the same after.

Before the Williams bout, he'd beaten #1 Doug Jones.

Before the Quarry bout, he'd drew with men by the names of Pieoro Tomasoni, and Peter Weiland, and flat out lost to Dave Zygelwics.

Miteff: Both knocked him out but both also faced very different versions. Williams faced the no. 7 contender. Quarry faced, an aged shot version on an ill-advised comeback

Foster: Williams faced him post-shooting and nearly knocked him out in the 3rd round, before being flattened himself. Quarry knocked him out. I have absolutely no doubt pre-shooting Williams would've brutally knocked out Mac "I never beat a ranked fighter in my life" Foster.

2. More importantly, Quarry was nothing like Williams which is what I was trying to tell you earlier regardless of whether he was a more dangerous KO puncher is up for debate, but his differences with Williams are not. My comparison to Liston is a lot more valid, than yours' with Quarry. For example, Quarry lost to Norton who was no match for Shavers and brutally dispatched inside a round.


With that said, thanks for the link to the article. Such things are always appreciated.

1. Ali didn't have them all throughout his second career. They were recurrent.

2. As I've already established, it wasn't an excuse. Their were reports BEFORE the fight that described the injuries, and the bout was on verge of a cancellation.

3. Regardless at the very least we know Williams was involved in a brutal fight a mere 11 days prior, where both men were punching before and after the bell, and fighting in the dressing room.

3. "Williams is going full tint with just about every punch. No sign whatsoever of his hands bothering him"
A professional fighter masking his pain? Color me shocked. On this same basis, Ali's issues with his hand in his later career is irrelevant.

I didn't see the link about the Jones thing. Was it there?

I didn't say, it in itself destroyed him mentally. I said it was the catalyst for a full-on mental breakdown. When he came back it was more than evident he was not the same.

His series of wins were against the likes of Dave Bailey, Alonzo Johnson (who years earlier was knocked out for the first by Williams in a single round without landing a blow) Bill Mcmurray, Alonzo Johnson, and Ollie Wilson. Hardly a murderer's row of opponents, certainly not one that would make you a top contender. Williams' wins were much better than these, and he's been crucified to hell by the likes of yourself.

It's more than likely Machen (similar to post gun-shot Williams) retained his ranking on the basis of his prior performance.

As I said, it's evident on film he's not the same.

 

This is the same person who thinks a prime Williams is 50-50 with Jack O'holloran... I wouldn't take anything he says to seriously. Williams beat Miteff with relative ease. Chuvalo drew with him, after being outboxed in their first bout, and later won a disputed SD by HALF of a point in his hometown, where the referee failed to deduct a low blow from Chuvalo which would've made Miteff the winner.

Chuvalo is not beating a prime Williams. The question is if he could even beat Miteff decisively on fair ground. The answer to that is a resounding no.

 

Terrell won that round but it was hardly a "shellacking". Williams wasn't even remotely hurt, and outside of 2 combos, Terrell was mostly smothering him.

All of which missed by a mile. And Williams was throwing punches in between. You realize their's film of this correct? I don't know why you're lying about something, so silly.

Across the round At least 3 or 4 Terrell jabs were clear scoring blows that landed at long range.

Williams literally buckled him, and Terrell from that point did basically NOTHING but hug Williams like his mama.

This is just ridiculous.

1. Williams scored as well.

2. Using this logic, every fighter who was knocked down in a round but survived and landed some punches actually won the round, because he fulfilled his objective, by scoring and the person looking for the KO failed. Another example of laughable Chok logic.

It was decisive, which is why nobody ever gave Terrell the 10th besides you. I challenge you to find ONE other person who gave Terrell that last round, or who sees it remotely like you do.