Cleveland Big Cat Williams gets a title shot on Sept 26 1962 instead of Sonny Liston.

I can agree with much of this. My only complaint was you saying Machen's win streak among his return was the reason he was ranked, and proof he was not past his prime for Patterson. All of his opponents were unranked, and unknown except for Alonzo Johnson who three years earlier was knocked out for the first time by Williams without landing a blow, and was actually one of the Toronto 5 many years later.

I agree he had the stylistic edge against Folley, but I would also make him a favorite against Chuvalo as well. He was definitely a class above him imo.

Their common opponents (pre shooting Williams).

Ernie Terrell: Chuvalo lost. Williams knocked him out in their first encounter, then lost a disputed SD in Terrell's hometown which the AP scored for Williams.

Alex Miteff: Chuvalo drew with him once, then beat him by a HALF point in a SD in his hometown, where the ref failed to deduct a point for a low blow which would've made Miteff the winner. Williams dominated Miteff and stopped him brutally.

Williams was equal with the other top contenders of his day Terrell and Machen. Chuvalo was not part of that class at all. I think we can also agree Chuvalo wouldn't get anywhere near a draw with Machen.

 

it’s only fair I point out further evidence you have deliberately missed out on Chuvalo vs miteff.

1. Chuvalo was 20 years old and had less than 17 fights at the time whereas miteff was the #5 rated contender. Chuvalo was years away from wins over DeJohn and Doug Jones. At this age Williams was 33-1 and knocked spark out by a light heavyweight.

2. Chuvalo just about knocked miteff out in the last round, the press claiming that only inexperience cost George a kayo.

3. In the rematch Miteff received a nasty cut early in the fight that required 12 stitches and Chuvalo believes the fight should have been stopped as early as the 6th round and that he controlled the whole fight.

4. it’s probably best you compare the versions of Williams and Chuvalo when both of them scored their best wins rather than just one of them.

 

1. You continue to say Williams was not green when he faced Satterfield despite also facing a much more experienced opponent who was rated before and after the bout. He was also years away from wins against Terrell, Miteff, Daniels, Rischer, Richardson and drawing with Machen. He was also 20 years old and years away, from any sort of ranking but you don't give him the same benefit of the doubt. Another example of your never-ending double standards.

2. The press also said "Chuvalo was clearly outboxed most of the fight" Source: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/67457602/the-des-moines-register/ In an ironic twist of fate, Miteff had a point deducted for a low blow in this fight, that otherwise he would've won.

"He would have won if referee Billy Burke hadn't taken the second round away from him for a low blow." Source: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/100233471/the-ottawa-citizen/

Yet Chuvalo low-blows Miteff in the 2nd fight and the home-town judge refuses to deduct a point from Chuvalo. Switch the judges for the bouts and Miteff wins the series 2-0.

3. As I've already established Chuvalo thought a lot of things, and had endless excuses for his losses or bad performances. That he thinks he won, and could've controlled the fight means nothing.

Who should we believe, the man who thinks he should've been 2-1 against Ali and Foreman (for all we know he probably thinks he's 3-0), or his hometown judges who were clearly biased and lenient towards him allowing a low blow of his to go unpunished?

Like I said, their's little argument for Chuvalo beating Williams prime for prime. Chuvalo was always a class under him. The argument is whether he could've beaten Williams' victim Miteff under neutral ground where ALL fouls go punished. The answer to that is a resounding NO, based on evidence.

 

At the age of just 17 - there was a period when Chuvalo was considered quite a boy wonder .

One oddity of that first Chuvalo-Miteff fight is Miteff would still have won if all three judges had given the final round to Chuvalo by 2 point margins. But one gave it to him by 3 points and another by 4, which is actually the only time I've seen this.

 

Wtf! I never noticed, nor actually saw the judges scorecards but it's beyond ridiculous. Given Chok's laughable scoring of Terrell-Williams, he was probably one of the judges!

 

I’m not so sure that there is little argument for Chuvalo beating Williams prime for prime. It’s a 50-50 fight.

in his prime Chuvalo beat Doug Jones Mike DeJohn.

in his prime Williams beat miteff and Billy Daniels.

I don’t see a lot of difference.

 

Good shout. Cleroux had some strong wins. I never saw one of his fights. But he must have been good. Perhaps a Similar level to George and Cleveland?

 

Seeing as you also have a prime Williams 50-50 with O'holloran, this means Williams is a comfortable favorite.

Billy Daniels who lost to Williams also beat Jones, and Dejohn, and he didn't need a MD (like Chuvalo did) to beat the latter, but stopped him which Chuvalo failed to do. He also knocked out Alongi without dropping a single round. The same Alongi who Chuvalo failed to beat.

 

These kind of anecdotes can be presented another way with very little research. Chuvalo was the first to stop Doug Jones. Chuvalo knocked out Dave Bailey quicker than Williams had. Etc etc. we can go over and over this. The point is, prime for prime Williams and Chuvalo are very very close.

Overall Williams does not have a win over a Jerry quarry level fighter like Chuvalo has who was rated very high at that time.

You seem to think that If a fight between prime Williams and prime Chuvalo had of been made around the time Chuvalo fought Floyd Patterson and Williams fought Billy Daniels that Williams would have been made a massive favourite.

No he wouldn’t. It’s a 50-50 fight.

 

Seems like Cleroux could do everything Chuvalo could, he just wasn't as determined. Got discouraged about not being good enough to beat Zora Folley and quit. Chuvalo lost just as badly to the same man but kept motoring on.

 

Didn’t Cleroux come back after a four year break from boxing to beat Williams in a 1968 upset?

I think at that time Williams was on a win streak after the Ali fight.

 

Let's see ... Patterson doesn't fight Liston in the fall of 1962 and instead fights Cleveland Williams ... who was coming off a draw in his last fight with Eddie Machen?

I'll go with Floyd. Williams had a chance, like all top level heavyweights do.

But Patterson fought, beat and knocked out better opponents than Williams. Patterson performed better overall against common opponents. Patterson was harder to hit. Patterson had better boxing skills. Their KO percentages were roughly the same. But Floyd knocked out guys with good chins, sometimes with a single shot. Floyd was the much sharper puncher. Williams wasn't. He was more of a clubber.

People get caught up in Williams being an imposing figure and Floyd NOT being an imposing figure. But, if fight results were based on that, Floyd would've lost ALL his fights. He wasn't imposing looking at all. And, Williams would've beaten everyone, and he he was just a contender. Nothing more, really.

 

This is where I am at.