Cleveland Big Cat Williams gets a title shot on Sept 26 1962 instead of Sonny Liston.

This is really good stuff. Thanks for posting. Patterson would have been harder for Williams to beat than he found Machen out to be a month after this interview. He already said he didn’t like fighting clever boxers. Like you say at that time there were several guys ahead of Williams at that time. Archie Moore included.

and Williams stock never improved from this point did it?

After this he drew with Machen and lost to Terrell. 0-1-1. against the elite. That’s as good as it ever got for him at elite level unless you count the lacklustre points wins over medium ranked Billy Daniels. Nobody counts Daniels as elite.

Williams vs Chuvalo in 1964 would be a 50-50 fight.

 

Chuvalo knocking out Dave Bailey 2 rounds quicker, than Williams doesn't offset him being 0-2 over Miteff on realistic scorecards, and being badly outpointed by Terrell who Williams had a 1-1 against, the loss being a controversial SD, many scored for Williams. As I stated Williams was definitely a level above them. Chuvalo seemed to be on the level below him along with Daniels, and Miteff. You should be debating whether Chuvalo was better than them (he wasn't imo). The fact that you all of people are calling it 50-50 (you also laughably gave Willimas 50-50 odds of beating a prime O'holloran) makes it a virtual guarantee Williams would win.

 

I know I'm going to regret quoting you, but who did Patterson fight that was remotely like Williams?

 

it was not controversial at all. Just a Close fight could have went either way. Nobody protested the result because it was that close. Nobody cared either way.

the guy was 20 years old. He had 17 fights, 4 of them on one night. The kid was up against a #5 rated contender and he still put mitteff down and nearly out. Let’s compare 20 yr old Chuvalo with 20yr old Williams. Oh that’s right. We are not allowed.

There’s no guarantee Williams would beat Chuvalo while he was in the top 5 or so after beating Jones. Whilst I concede George could be beat on a whim by any contender, Stopping Jones was still better than anything Williams ever did. I think Williams would lose to Foley just like Chuvalo did. They both lost to a prime Terrell. So They had a lot in common. Because they were the same level. Had Williams fought more contenders he likely loses more fights. Just as Chuvalo did.

 

Charlie Powell was a lot like Williams in style though he was not as good. Todd Herring was as big. And not as good.

Patterson beat guys as good as Williams like Chuvalo and Bonavena and Huricane jackson. They were all as good as Williams.

 

That must explain why Williams rematched Liston, after being on the wrong end of a brutal TKO, and standing toe to toe with him.

 

Thank you for proving my point.

As I've demonstrated, Chuvalo was on the level of (and perhaps a little below) Williams victims Miteff and Daniels. Regardless if they're as good as Williams or not, they still fought NOTHING like Williams which is what I was trying to say. Liston was inarguably closer to Williams than all of the above men and we all know how that turned out for Patterson.

 

It was a split decision in the winner''s hometown where his local AP scored against him. The verdict of the scorecards on this forum, were split down the middle.

This #5 contender turned pro literally a month or so after Chuvalo, so it's not like he was an experienced veteran. Regardless, he was much more experienced 4 years later when he barely garnered an SD in his hometown by 1/4th of a point, and should've lost (both bouts) had the officiating been even remotely fair

Your comparison to a 20 year old Williams is invalid, because Williams unlike Chuvalo was facing someone far more experienced, a much more dangerous puncher than Miteff, and oh yeah did it at a last second notice.

Like I said, Jones had just lost to Billy Daniels when Chuvalo knocked him.

We're going around in circles here, because you are being disingenuous

I've already established how Miteff should've been 2-0 over Chuvalo under fair officiating.

As for Terrell, Williams knocked him OUT, and lost a disputed SD in his opponent's hometown while fighting through an injury that very nearly caused the bout to be cancelled. Chuvalo lost decisively in his own hometown to Terrell by scores of 65-72, 65-73, 65-69. Williams did much better against Terrell. Are you going to deny this?

He also did much better against their common opponents (pre-shooting), knocking out two men who should've been 3-0 over Chuvalo on fair scorecards but oh yeah I forgot, Chuvalo knocked out Dave Bailey two rounds quicker than Williams did so that evens things up.

 

Liston was nothing like Cleveland Williams!
Liston was shorter, stronger and a much better boxer. Hunted his opponents down behind a huge jab. Had a great right hand. Great hook. Great uppercut. Short range. Long range. And a much busier fighter who could box. Set up openings. Very methodical. Very economical. Very complete.

williams was a tall explosive fighter. He had some good qualities. But he only Fought in spurts. Waited for moments to unleash a combination. Usually a burst of hooks. The rest of the time he was a stalking robot. Following people around. No head movement.

The same kind of style as Powell. Who could also punch. Patterson had no problem whatsoever with that kind of fighter. A tall stalking Robot with no head movement taking his time to unload. There’s no huge jab baring down on him. Or Consistent work rate.

Liston knocked out elite fighters while they were elite. Patterson and Folley. He knocked out Harris and Williams who were lower than this. And Sonny outpointed Machen who Williams only managed to draw with. Sonny knocked out frankie Daniels and Williams went the distance with him.

About the only thing Liston had in common with Williams was they were both muscular and scary looking. Which isn’t a style. It’s a look.

There is a gulf in class. And it was huge.

 

nobody protested the result. Nobody says Williams was ripped off. It’s quite common for people to be happy with the opposite result in very close fights that could go either way.

says who? They were both 20. Williams had more fights by the age of 20. 34 fights to 17. They were both fighting rated opponents. Williams was facing a light heavyweight and fared much worse even though he enjoyed huge physical advantages. You could argue Williams opponent was more experienced than chuvalos opponent..but it was a punch that knocked him out not experience. What else is there to learn after 34 learning fights? Chuvalo at least knocked his one over and went the distance. With fewer fights behind him. Against a guy as big as he was.

you have established one way of interpreting those results. The other way is to say this was not chuvalos prime. He had yet to score wins that later made him relevant to a prime vs prime discussion.

no Williams did not knock out Terrell. He stopped him on his feet. Later when Terrell was more relevant to the division it was a much closer affair.

regarding their full potential, Williams never proved to be on a higher level to Terrell. And neither did Chuvalo.

 

Yes, Powell was a poor mans version of Cleveland Williams. He lasted a similar amount of time against Ali as Williams who was a poor man version of himself by the time he fought Ali.

 

You make Sonny sound like an utterly amazing fighter chok and i 100% agree!!!! That's not far off the GOAT right there going by your well thought out descriptions. What a fighting machine he truly was.

 

Sonny was an absolute beast. If I defend the chances of someone against Liston, it is not because I don’t recognise what a great fighter he was.

 

Mate going by the fighter you described we need not worry about anyone's chances excepting prime Ali. You'd described an absolute force of nature down to the tee.