Cleveland Big Cat Williams of 1960 vs Oscar Ringo Bonavena 1970.

Did you expect anything less? Expect Chok to join him soon.

 

Hey, at least Chok is only rude when talking about Cleveland Williams, right? ha ha

 

I like Oscar by split decision here.

 

There was a window in his career where Williams could lose by split decision to Terrell and draw with Eddie Machen when they were both reasonable contenders. albeit the draw was in his hometown. At this point, perhaps it’s fair to say Williams deserves to hold his own somewhat with Bonavena in much the way he did Losing to Chuvalo.

Chuvalo and Bonavena are quite close. Joe Frazier was better than both. But that’s Joe Frazier, a real world champion. I don’t think there is convincing evidence that Williams was ever better than bonevena or chuvalo. I think both Chuvalo and Bonavena deserves to start favourite over Williams.

 

Sorry meant to put one win against Martin.

 

You forgot to mention he had a STOPPAGE victory over Terrell just a year prior and that going into the Terrell bout he was not 100% after a grueling victory over another former contender just a week and a half prior.

Another thing you conveniently left out is it was a MAJORITY draw. Two judges had it dead even while the other had Williams clearly ahead, as did the majority of crowd as well as the AP.

So you're saying a prime bullet-free Williams does just as good as the literally shot counterpart?

Chok, just yesterday you were comparing common opponents to gauge who was the better fighter when it came down to Ingo and Bonavena. What happened to that today? Forget? Don't worry I'll save you the trouble.

Williams decisively battered and stopped someone who drew with Chuvalo (and later lost a disputed SD in Chuvalo's hometown which he was docked a point for a low blow which is the only reason Chuvalo won), so that makes a prime Williams decisively better than both no?

Ernie Terrell: Chuvalo was widely outpointed by Terrell by scores of 72-65, 73-65, and 69-65. The same Terrell was stopped by Williams while near his prime, then a mere year later taken the distance winning a controversial SD (in which the AP actually had Williams a clear winner), in which he arguably got dropped but the referee failed to recognize it as such saving Terrell from a decision loss.

Ali: Chuvalo was widely outpointed by scores of 74-63, 74-62, 74-62. Williams was a shell of himself after being shot, and went against an absolute peak Muhammad Ali and was dispatched. For obvious reasons Williams match with Ali doesn't hold nearly as much weight as the aforementioned first two common opponents.

Now Bonavena on the surface did better against common opponents in Al Lewis, George Chuvalo, and Muhammad Ali, but Williams was not only shot (literally) against all three of these men but for the latter 2, he was also in his late 30s, so they don't hold much weight. Not to mention, Williams fought an absolutely peak Muhammad Ali, while Bonavena fought one who'd fought 9 rounds in three years.

 

Regarding "name" opponents; Records vs. ranked fighters when they fought:

Bonavena: 5-7-1
Williams: 2-8-1

 

Was he really on his way back from celebrating his upcoming title shot against Terrell when he was shot? The patrolman did note Williams was drinking heavily so that would explain it!

 

I know that, I just didn't know he was celebrating his upcoming title shot.

 

That's not true, because Daniel (2X), Miteff, and Rischer were all ranked when he fought them. Even so, of those 8 losses, only three were before he'd been shot. Of those 3, only 2 were decisive and they were against a peak Sonny Liston.

 

@swagdelfadeel, I officially knight you the Defender of Cleveland Williams. I know I'm a big fan of the man (relatively compared to the mainstream opinion on the forum), but you are his greatest advocate by far.

 

I'm not even a particularily big fan of him. I'm just irked when Choklab, Klompton, Catchwt, among others act like he's the worst boxer in history. He is by far one of the most underrated fighters on this sub. The way the aforementioned 3 talk about him, you'd think he'd never have won a fight in his life!