Cleveland Williams, how good was he?

Cleve was the type of fighter that having a manager/trainer on the level of Angie Dundee or Gil Clancy may have moved him to a higher level, plus Williams seemed to have "bad luck".:
"By November 1964 he was still only 31, which is far from ancient for a heavyweight. But he grew old overnight. The World Boxing Association wanted him to box for their title, which they had stripped from Muhammad Ali on a technicality. The WBA didn't mean much at the time - everybody knew Ali was the best heavyweight in the world - but it provided a way out of the pack for those who were condemned to operate in Ali's shadow.

The WBA paired Williams with Ernie Terrell of Chicago, a 6ft 6in giant who was cunning and awkward inside the ropes but not much of a puncher. It was a fight Williams and his manager Hugh Benbow considered well within his grasp. Benbow told Williams to keep his mind organised, to stay out of the gym for the last couple of weeks once the hard work was done and to keep away from the beer and bright lights which had begun to attract him all too often. Williams, said Benbow, was in magnificent shape only 14 days before the scheduled date." Then Williams got gut-shot by a cop, and the rest is history.

 

I wouldn't include Liston in that list ,he never learned to cut off the ring.Marciano 's balance was an issue ,imo but he certainly never followed you around like Sonny, he was always moving laterally to be in front of you .

 

I think every man and his dog knew Williams was past it. Ali said he felt bad that he had to fight a fighter no longer at his best...He also had a bullet lodged in him from an altercation with police not long before

 

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Although it's true he was past his prime, Williams had actually won his previous 8 fights before facing Ali, four of those after the shooting.
He won his next 5 after facing Ali albeit not against the greatest opposition.
Just pointing out that he wasn't exactly an invalid when going in against Ali.
I think what people marvel at is simply Ali's athleticism, speed and skill that he displayed that night while realising the limitations of Williams.
It was just an incredible display.

 

Speed was really overatted with foreman at any year...Really he had a very fast sharp jab and sneaky uppercut in his second comeback.I would say his speed really slowed after 94.its really the set ups and timing which didnt make his speed much of a factor since he was more accurate and approached fighting with actual plan to bait guys in certain angles.

 

Well tell me how hard is it to escape from you? I know once i have my way their is no escape you are fu'ked.

 

Marciano fought a total of 10 guys over 200 pounds ...the 185 bit is played out,and hes never fought a true decent HW of size even if you consider any 210 pounder of size.. Im not comparing those guys either like Floyd and anyone below 200...the thread was clearly how GOOD was Williams wasnt it?

My post shows the caliber of guys that made him look good at times and how BIGGER guys gave him trouble even ones with poor records...this really is crystal clear to what i posted.

 

The only guy to stop Williams, other than Liston, before he was shot was Bob Satterfield, who was basically a light heavyweight. (Williams was a late sub.) So that kind of blows your theory about struggling with big guys out of the water.

Cleveland Williams was a guy who fought to the level of his competition. If he fought someone rated and good, he'd tend to fight well. If he fought someone average, he could have an average night.

That's what happens to guys who fight regularly for 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 years ... and never get a sniff at a title shot.

You get frustrated with your situation. You don't enter every fight against every nobody in front of you fighting your best.

There were no huge top heavyweights in the 1950s and early 1960s. Williams was bigger than most. Some fat guy didn't pose more problems for him than a small light guy.

The very top heavyweights during most of his career were Marciano (who typically weighed in the 180s), Floyd Patterson (who typically weighed high 180s/low 190s) and Ingo (who was high 190s). There were no monsters. Ernie Terrell was 6'6" and 200 pounds and Williams stopped him, because Sonny Liston was the referee and he was goading Williams the whole time.

If Williams had gotten a title shot with one of the top champs before the shooting, I'm sure he'd have done fine. Williams never appeared to be the best heavyweight in the whole world. I'm not saying he beats Rocky or Floyd or Ingo, I'm just saying I think he'd have done fine. And, who knows what happens if he got in there with them. That's why they fight the fights.

 

GREAT ANALYSIS ^^^^.

 

I just didn't get your point. I have no issue either way with you, you aren't on my horizon

 

Sometimes you are sold on the power, but not the fighter.

This is such a case.

His power was in the same category as Foreman, Lyle, Cooney etc., but his record leaves unanswered questions.

 

So are you saying the EXACT data i JUST poster is imagination?

i dont care what williams WOULD do...its what he did... what i posted has nothing to do with fantasy but reality...read that again ITS all there????Smh.

where did i list Williams vs Marciano who he outweigthed 15/20 pounds?You guys on this section attack and you have no idea what is actually being discussed...smh...i guess its good for me?lol

 

smh? is?

 

Cleveland Williams was a good fighter.
He gave Liston a decent brawl the first time. He defeated a young Ernie Terrell. He drew with Eddie Machen. He probably fought too many third-raters but he had to make a living.
Cassius Clay's managers didn't want to risk fighting him before they got a title shot.

Williams had speed, power and skill. His big weakness was probably durability. Liston showed that Williams couldn't take as much as he could dish out. Liston had that over him.