Cleveland Williams in the 1930s

No biggie. You're still one of my favorite posters, and I think we agree on nearly everything else, excluding Williams.

 

That's indefensible to be honest. Loughran was amazing defensive fighter who showed his toughness against the most powerful fighters in the world. How can you justify that statement?

I don't think either, though maybe Baer's combination of size and durability would give him more time than Williams. Liston wouldn't be able to play bully against him.

That's fair, but then you shouldn't nitpick one stoppage loss in either 60 or even 170 fights. Williams have a lot more black marks on his resume than Loughran.

I meant that nobody cares about Williams at all other than few of his fans and choklab who tries to convince you he wasn't anything special in historical terms... which he wasn't. I don't agree with him in many cases, but I am closer to him in this one. He exaggarates at times, but Williams wasn't the monster you try to turn him into.

What's the caliber of Williams? He was fringe contender in unspectacular era.

I'm not even talking about the knockdown, Baer at least lasted more than three rounds in the first fight.
I don't see any reason why Baer wouldn't be able to drop Liston if he times him well. Baer was extremely powerful man with big size advantage over Sonny. Of course he wouldn't beat him, but it's not out of possibility.

I never said that I'd call Buddy Baer a clear cut favorite against Williams. I would do that with Max Baer, but not Buddy. I think they were on comparable level and it would be an exciting fight.

 

I also think we'd disagree on Liston a bit, only because I view a few other legends as better than him. I respect Liston a lot though, he was excellent fighter.

I also like reading your posts and even here, we had a nice discussion about the topic we clearly disagree. It's very rare on this board, I feel sick of reading mcvea or White Bomber responses

 

All due respect, George made this same claim a while back and you agreed with him.
I don't think either, though maybe Baer's combination of size and durability would give him more time than Williams. Liston wouldn't be able to play bully against him.

Fair point. But Williams was actually stopped less than Loughran pre-shooting, and 2 of those losses came to a peak H2H monster.

It's not a case of exaggerating but more like flat out lying and double standards. For example he refuses to give Williams any credit for beating a "green" Terrell who was 23 years old, had been fighting for 5 years, never close to being knocked out, and last losing 2 years prior to a rated contender via an SD. But Williams gets no excuses for his loss to Satterfield, despite being a last minute substitute, extremely green, and not even old enough to drink.

Another example, he always says Williams was "KTFO" by Liston, Foster, and others despite being stopped on his feet against them, but Williams KO over Terrell doesn't count because he was on his feet.

Williams was far from a fringe contender. Fringe contenders of that era were guys like Dejohn, and Billy Daniels. Fringe contenders don't make #2 like Williams did. Williams was an elite contender, on the same level of Machen, and Terrell, which he more than proved in his bouts with them.

Fair enough

 

I gave him credit. Already on this thread I have said Williams best wins were stopping a young Terrell and the points wins over Daniels. Hardly elite wins. He still lost the rematch with Terrell in a close fight once Terrell got a rating. His elite record is one draw. One points loss and 3 knockout defeats against two champions. Let’s have some perspective here.

Williams had enough wins behind him to no longer be green and enough size advantage to even up things. Terrell may have been stopped by Williams at a similar stage but he had no size advantage over Williams…and he was not counted out anyway.

Sometimes they do. Henry Cooper was once #2.

Williams was briefly an elite contender around the time he could take Terrell to a split decision loss and a get a draw with Eddie. But he won neither bout…and was not so impressive against Daniels in either decision.

 

My last reply here, just to be clear - you are comparing Loughran's 170 fights career to Williams 60 fights career pre-shooting. Loughran was stopped 3 times in 170 tries, Williams was also stopped 3 times but in over 100 fights less. Loughran was one of the best defensive fighters of his era, I really don't understand how you can deny that.

Loughran also faced much better competition throughout his career. Loughran is an ATG fighter and P4P legend, Williams is a decent contender for a few years who accomplished nothing.

 

He knocked out Terrell a year prior, always beat the fringe contenders when he faced them (before he was shot at least) and only lost against a top 10 H2H monster in his prime, and when he was a shell of himself to the GOAT at the latter's pinnacle.

OK, using that logic. Marciano wasn't green against Lowry. Dempsey wasn't green against Flynn, etc. Regardless of what you think, Williams was 20 years old, a last second substitute, and had no amateur career to speak of. His trainers said he was green, the promotor of the bout said he was green, hell his opponent said he was green! We have you, a man with a 12 year history of lying and deceit saying otherwise.

They were not remotely "at a similar stage". One was a 20 year old child, who'd been dropped by Sylester Jones months prior, and going in as a last minute substitute against a dangerous puncher, the caliber of which he never faced before, and years away from a ranking.

The other was 23 years old, been boxing for 5 years, with an stellar amateur career behind him, including winning the Golden gloves, picked up a ranking less than a year later, and had no losses in 2 years, that being an SD to a rated contender 2 years prior

Ok in that case, it's only fair enough to take away Williams losses to Liston, Foster, Lewis, Jones, and Ali.

Fair point.

Machen didn't get a win over either Williams and Terrell either. I'll concede Machen wasn't in his prime against the latter. Between the 3, only Williams has a claim to be 3-0 over both others which would put his record in an entirely different light.

At least even you concede Williams was an elite contender at least for some period. Thought it was going to take some time to beat it out of you.

 

Williams would have been considered elite for a brief time, for fights where he closely lost or drew with good fighters. The thing with Williams was he hung around a long time and could always knock over stiffs.

But it is important to note the caliber of those he beat at world level. For all his reputation, He did not beat a single elite fighter himself.

i don’t know how that proves he would do better in the 1930s when he probably would not eclipse Charlie Retzlaff level men.

This is not true. In fact this would be dishonest for you to say so. Unfortunately you interpret a different opinion as a lie. And I can’t help that.

 

Do you know if there is any footage of Johnny Risko fighting? Or would you know where I should look or who I could contact?

 

The best men Williams fought were:


Ali

Liston

Terrell

Machen

Satterfeild

Chuvalo

Mac Foster

Al Blue Lewis

Al Jones

Bob Cleroux

Roger Rischer

Billy Daniels

Alex Miteff


His record against these guys is 4-11-1 and he suffered two knockdowns against Satterfeild. Four knock downs against Foster. Four knockdowns against Liston. Three knockdowns against Ali. Two knockdowns against Al Jones. That’s 12 times he was hammered to the canvas against the best 13 men he fought.


Altogether Williams had just 27 fights against name fighters from a total of 94 fights spread over 21 years . An average of one and a bit meaningfull fights per year. That’s nearly 70 fights against guys that didn’t matter.

 

As far as I know, nothing is available. There are better experts about rare boxing footage here though.

 

Out of interest how did you decide what guys were "name fighters" that did matter?

 

Presumably the same way everyone else does. By researching the men they fought and the levels they all fought at. NBA ratings. Ring ratings and boxrec. There’s a lot of info out there. You won’t find more than 70 mismatches on Williams record I can assure you. But the 27 decent ones he fought were known fighters with form against other known fighters who appear on the record of recognisable names.

 

Ok so you scouted a few things and made your own personal determinations. Got it.

ATG Joey Frazier had 37 fights total. I would be all sorts of enthusiastic for you to tell me how many "name fighters" he fought.

Thanks in advance.

 

An era so pathetic that a man without arms became a fringe contender.