Cleveland Williams is nowhere near even Ingemar Johansson in any OBJECTIVE metric.

So... still no luck remembering all those "spectacular" losses you said Williams suffered in his prime?

It's ok, I can wait. Give it some more thought.

 

I did. It was no more/ less credible than your opinion that Ingo was greater than Williams.

 

They didn't duck him. Their managers/ trainers didn't allow their fighters to fight Williams until a certain point. It's not ducking. It's exercising wisdom.

 

Any proof of this?

 

Not really. Unfortunately, it's one of those things where I've read so many articles that I don't know what article/ website I read it on, and it's just kind of become common knowledge btwn me and myself.

 

Ingo had just as much if not more.

I wouldn't call him very quick, Ingo also had decent handspeed.

Williams had slow feet and was a plodder. His footwork is nothing special.

He's nothing special in these aspects either.

Where did Williams prove his stamina? His durability is actually quite weak.

 

Williams went 1-3-1 against Liston, Machen and Terrell not 3-1-1.

Richardson had got off the floor and fouled Williams with a headbut when he was disqualified and the two were ordered to rematch by the British Boxing board of control. Richardson was happy to rematch Williams and was very confident of winning. They both weighed in and an intimidated Williams got spooked and would not go through with the fight. Williams said he could not go through with it because voices in his head told him so. Williams was banned for pulling out of a fight he had agreed to go through with. The promoters said they would never work with him again. It was not because he beat up their best fighter. Richardson was not their best fighter yet the timid Williams still ducked out of a rematch with Richardson. He left the U.K. a laughing stock.

I agree. Patterson

 

Well as a young child I wouldnt expect you to know the context of those circumstances. Check the forum and you will find a detailed post by me at some point outlining how those fights came about. But just of the three you named: Rademacher, Harris, and London: Patterson had defeated his number one contender the month before he fought Rademacher, Williams was unrated when Patterson fought Rademacher. Harris was rated #3 when Patterson fought him, Williams was unrated due to being suspended by the BBBofC and the NBA for dropping out of a fight with Dick Richardson. Prior to his suspension he was rated #9. When Patterson fought London Patterson was already signed to face his #1 (Johansson) the following month. Patterson had tried to defend against Cooper (rated #2) as a tuneup for Johansson but Cooper priced himself out of the fight asking double what he had already agreed upon for the title fight. London, who had just lost an exciting fight to Cooper was subbed in Coopers place. London was rated #8. Williams was unranked. So please. Tell me why Patterson should have fought an unranked opponent in every one of these instances over the guy he defeated instead. At least in fighting Rademacher he was fighting a guy as a gimme who brought a boatload of money to the table less than one month after defeating his mandatory.

 

Oh youve watched all of the fights of Williams that were filmed. Which ones pray tell.

 

1. Williams and Ingo were on the same plane of power, but I give Williams the edge.
2. You just have to watch a lot of Williams to see the handspeed, which is obvious in the Liston fights.
3. I don't think Williams was a dancer if that's what you mean, but he did not follow a straight path to follow a guy like Liston did, he would move around with his opponents.
4. I don't think Williams had amazing stamina, but he often went the 10-round distance, and judging by the Billy Daniels fight (on film), he had good stamina.
5. Williams certainly does not have an ATG chin, but only Liston stopped him in his prime. Williams went 10 vs. Terrell and Chuvalo in losing efforts and showed his durability in that way.

 

Sorry, I cited the number backwards. I'm used to the wins, then losses, then draws. Silly mistake. 1-3-1 is certainly correct.
I called Richardson ONE of UK's best fighters, not the BEST. Henry Cooper was certainly the best.

 

I wasn't saying that Williams deserved a shot. Only that if Patterson's fighting bums anyway, Williams certainly deserves one. I already said that Ingo, Liston, Machen, Folley, and a bunch of other guys were way ahead in the line of Williams.

 

Of course. I haven't seen the unfilmed ones that you have. I have seen the fights with Liston, Terrell II, Billy Daniels I, Tod Hering, Ali, and Chuvalo all many times. I also saw the KO of Jim Wiley once.

 

Ingo did everything right 26-2 17 knockouts will go down as the heavyweight Champion of the World, and got out with his money and marbles intact

 

You haven't told me anything I don't know so far.