Cleveland Williams is nowhere near even Ingemar Johansson in any OBJECTIVE metric.

Like I said, show me all of these top rated guys he fought and his record against them. Should be pretty easy. Itd also tell you a lot about why Williams never went anywhere and it had nothing to do with getting shot.

 

How would I have them if they were unfilmed? You listed 8 fights. He lost five of the eight you listed. Three by knockout. Yet somehow youve extrapolated that he had all of those great traits you listed in those efforts. Two of the fights he won were against total nobodys and one was against a guy who finished his career with a 50/50 record, literally.

 

Then the question begs to be asked that if Patterson is fighting bums who either were higher rated than Williams or had better financial backing what does that say of Williams as a fighter? And once again, why should Williams be given a title shot over those guys. You havent answered that question. All youve said is that if Patterson was fighting bums then Williams should have been given a shot. Thats a nice blanket statement but why not expound on why you think Williams should have gotten a title shot before the above three listed as an example when he was neither rated more highly nor brought as much money to the table.

 

It’s not unreasonable to dismiss a hard hitting contender if the guy went 1-3-1 in his prime in the only 5 fights he went into where he wasn’t matched to win.

Williams did not struggle to get fights. Many opponents were willing to fight him twice. It seems there was money to be made keeping Williams winning in Texas. Nothing wrong with that.

 

@klompton2 me and @SolomonDeedes are still waiting for William's "spectacular" losses to the top men he faced.

 

@choklab you didn't answer my question. As I said, I'm getting up there in years and faintly remember a common opponent of London and Williams, in Dick Richardson. I just can't for the life of me remember their respective performances. Can you please refresh my memory?

 

Im still waiting for this list of top contenders he fought and how he did against them. Compile that and youll answer your own question. When your best results against rated contenders come against Alex Miteff and Billy Daniels, both of whom squeeked into the lower top briefly, I can see why you cant be bothered to list all of these killers Williams did so great against. Youd have to make it up.

 

Youd also think that the resume might matter when one guy's claim to fame in his prime is winning the heavyweight title against an all time great and the others claim to fame in his prime is either getting knocked out or getting shot. You pick. Its why resumes matter, not how good a guy looks knocking out setups in his hometown which is what the vast majority of Williams' career was composed of.

 

You talk about all kinds of fights that "still never get old" or stuff like that that nobody else has ever seen. You're talking record. I'm talking skills.

 

If they were unfilmed they wouldnt exist.

You have a wonderful imagination.

 

Well, I understand London. Patterson was supposed to fight a Brit, and Cooper couldn't fight Patterson. Roy Harris had beaten Norkus and Pastrano, two good light heavies, and Willie Besmanoff. Even that's plausible. I believe he'd even beaten Bob Baker as well. But Besmanoff and Baker were to Harris what Holman and Richardson were to Williams. But Rademacher had NO pro experience. If it had been up to me, this would have been the plan for Floyd's championship fight schedule, leading up to the Johansson fight.
1957
1958
1959

lol

 

Alright, here's a question for you. If Lyle-Bonavena exists, how come it's not on youtube or any other site, and no site sells it on dvd or tape?

 

Well, I understand London. Patterson was supposed to fight a Brit, and Cooper couldn't fight Patterson. Roy Harris had beaten Norkus and Pastrano, two good light heavies, and Willie Besmanoff. Even that's plausible. I believe he'd even beaten Bob Baker as well. But Besmanoff and Baker were to Harris what Holman and Richardson were to Williams. But Rademacher had NO pro experience. If it had been up to me, this would have been the plan for Floyd's championship fight schedule, leading up to the Johansson fight.
1957
Archie Moore II
Bob Baker
Eddie Machen
Nino Valdes
1958
Henry Cooper
Dick Richardson
1959
Zora Folley
Sonny Liston

Something like that.

 

Patterson wasnt responsible for who was rated. Harris was rated WAY ahead of Williams. Williams was a nobody when Patterson fought Rademacher and the Rademacher fight happened for a very specific reason. Had Rademacher not been able to generate the interest of investors it wouldnt have happened, and frankly had Williams, being a total nobody been able to show up to Pattersons house with a dump truck full of money like Rademacher did he likely would have gotten an undeserved title shot. You can wish Patterson fought this guy or that but when those wishes have no basis in context then they are nothing but pure fantasy. Your proposed schedule of fights for Patterson is ludicrous and has no basis in reality. For example you have him fighting Liston in 1959, when Liston had faced just one top ten contender. You have him rematching Moore in 1957 despite Moore having lost to Patterson on a one sided knockout and despite the fact that Moore had his own obligation to defend his 175 pound title, youve also got him fighting Eddie Machen who had only just broken into the ratings. In fact almost every pick you placed there had only just broken into the ratings when you have them get an immediate title shot and several slipped out of the ratings almost as quickly. Henry Cooper had a signed title shot and threw it away so there goes that pick. I could go on but your list looks like someone who looked at boxrec, took a guy who had one good win or recognizable name in hindsight and then arbitrarily decided he should get a title shot, which of course is exactly what you did. The biggest joke of all is that youre on here trumpeting that Williams should have gotten an undeserved title shot but your arbitrary list cant even find room to squeeze Williams in ahead of a bunch of other guys that didnt deserve title shots when you say. So you basically get that the dates dont square up with Williams meager accomplishments in any sense to realistically say he deserved any consideration at all. This all ignores that Patterson could only fight so many times a year due to the tax situation at the time. Had he fought as often as you think he should have he would have been fighting for pennies in some of those fights. The bottom line is that not every fighter who briefly crashes the rankings gets a shot, nor should they, nor can they depending on how everybody’s schedules shake out. You are trying to make a very grey issue very black and white.

 

alright, tell me who deserved a title shot. Ezzard Charles maybe? Or how 'bout a green George Chuvalo. Or better, Ernie Terrell. You cannot say that the guys Floyd chose to fight were better than Moore and Liston. That is ludicrous.