Cleveland Williams is nowhere near even Ingemar Johansson in any OBJECTIVE metric.

This thread got to 20 pages ?

I can't even imagine what there is to argue so long about.
Does anyone here actually consider Cleveland Williams better than Ingemar Johansson ??

It's clear that Johansson > Williams.
And neither of them were ATGs, so there's nothing else to say really.

 

I'm saying had Ali fought a young healthy Williams and not one with a bullet in him causing permanent damage, it might've been a wee bit different.

What the hell is this supposed to mean? Since when does the size of the audiences directly correlate to a boxer's health? This is one of the most bizarre things I've ever seen you post and that says a lot. Very few gave Williams anything more than a snowballs chance in hell as a contemporary newspaper account clearly demonstrates. "33 year old Cleveland Williams a man who is lucky to be alive. Still carrying a policeman's bullet in his body as a result of a gunshot wound in a scuffle with a highway patrolman in 1964, Williams is given only a long shot 5-1 chance to win. Williams once was one of the most feared punchers in the division. But that was before the wound sent him to a Houston hospital for four major operations in seven months. Nobody knows how much he has left." Their is a reason he was a 5-1 underdog.

"and he answered "Williams, he could fight he was a terrific puncher. but there's nothing much left now is there."
"I said no."
"it bothers me to fight him when he's like that."
- Muhammad Ali

You're really a ****ing clown you know that?

 

Did you not see the so objective opening post?

 

Their's a reason he was called the Big Cat you know... And I don't think it's because he had whiskers.

As for your other post, I'm a bit short on time and will address it later.

 

"There's a reason he was called the Big Cat you know"

Yeah, he had a good press agent. With a couple of Texas oil millionaires managing him he could be expected to be pumped up by the best flacks in the business. Good press agency can always help an image.

Consider Firpo--"The Wild Bull of the Pampas" sounds so much more threatening than "The Clumsy Slob from South of the Equator" doesn't it?

I will concede this. Williams was quicker than Valdes.

But if any heavyweight deserved a cat analogy because of his quickness, it was Ali.

 

"They called him “The Big Cat” because of his athletic hand and foot speed and his paralyzing punching power. He seemed to have it all." https://bill37mccurdy.com/2010/04/08/cleveland-the-big-cat-williams/

He owed his nickname, Big Cat, to his feline grace and speed. https://www.houstonpress.com/news/on-the-ropes-6571668

"Cleveland Williams a fast and often dangerous heavyweight will be aiming for an early finish tonight."

"Williams a good early-round fighter when in top condition moves fast and graceful for a 210 pounder and looks like the big cat"

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/54092158/the-pantagraph/

Even Choklab, the biggest detractor of Williams here will tell you The Big Cat is not lacking in speed, such is the crassness of your remark.

 

I believe that Cleveland Big Cat Williams was handled by Texas Millionaire Hugh Benbow.

 

The only things wrong with the opening post are :
1. The OP names a few too many mediocre opponents as notable wins for Johansson. *
2. The OP compares how many losses Ingo and Cleveland had without mentioning the latter had far more fights and fought on longer when he was old and shot.

* in the case of point (1) the OP, by mentioning those mediocre opponents for Johansson, also arguably gives reason to mention a couple of mediocre ones for Williams too, which it does.

The rest of the OP is solid. And the general point is correct.

 

That wasn't the statement the OP made, he said Williams was nowhere near Ingo and a lot of us disagree,and when we did he got snotty ,its that simple.

 

Williams is a clear level below Johansson at least. There's ample daylight between them. So, whatever phrases the OP uses, the general point is correct. It's that simple.

 

Whats wrong with it is it isn't in any way objective and ,when this was pointed out to him he got butt hurt and insulted people,So **** HIM!

 

Well several of us disagree,so there we are ,at what was called ,when I was at college, an impasse.

 

While I agree Ingo was better I don't think they are far apart either. Ingo's a career he wisely cut short. Why. In his last fight he won practically on his back in the vs. Brian London as barley beat the count and was saved by the bell! 20 seconds more in round 12 and he's done. Ingo called it quits after 28 fights at age 25 and that held his image up. Fans didn't see his inevitable decline.

Yes-- I think Williams could be 1-2 vs Floyd Patterson too. If you ask me who's better suited to do well today, I'd probably say Williams by a shade

 

Williams vs. Liston is a must-see.

Ingo was born at the right time. He got the matchup vs. Patterson to who had an aggressive style and shaky chin to give Ingo his puncher's chance and then some.

Ingo is really a smaller type of guy with a big right hand, below-average balance and footwork, and a suspect chin. His defense was nothing special. He's not outboxing someone decent above his size, that's for sure.

I saw Ingo sparring with Ali, it wasn't remotely close.

 

Yeah, I think we should all turn around and go home!