Cleveland Williams is nowhere near even Ingemar Johansson in any OBJECTIVE metric.

Williams apparently had two managers. The very visible one was Hugh Benbow. He is the one who talked to the press. I know he is always described as a millionaire, but can't find where he got his money. The second manager, a sort of silent partner, was Bud Adams, an oil millionaire who also helped found the American Football League and was the owner of the Houston Oilers (later the Tennessee Titans). Adams certainly had money, and one would think connections.

 

Of course quickness and speed are relative. Was Eddie Machen slow? No, but he was slower than Patterson when the two fought. Was Nino Valdes slow. Probably not for the average big guy his size, but he looks slow on film against an opponent like Satterfield. For a fighter his size, Williams was quicker than most. Quicker than Valdes and someone like Chuvalo. But on film he was distinctly slower than Terrell, and of course much slower than Ali.

I stand by saying Williams was a stiff fighter. He is more or less straight up with a minimum of head or torso movement. The contrast with the bobbing Liston is plain to see.

As for relying on his nickname of The Big Cat. Well, the first "Big Cat" I know of was John Mize of the baseball Cardinals, Giants, and Yankees. He was a lumbering 6' 2" and 215 lb (and later much heavier) first baseman who had a graceful left-handed swing. No one would consider him fast afoot. Ernie Ladd was a defensive tackle for the Chargers and Chiefs of the AFL who also had the nickname of the Big Cat. He was 6' 9" and 315 lbs. He was actually less quick than his 6' 7" and 285 lb. defensive tackle teammate Buck Buchanan. Buchanan is now in the Pro Football Hall of Fame and Ladd is not. Ladd was out of football pretty early and went on to have a long career in pro wrestling.

So having a cat nickname doesn't actually prove you are cat quick or even particularly fast.

By the way, gracefulness isn't the same thing as quickness. Two dancers gliding to a Viennese waltz are very graceful but it doesn't mean they have quick reflexes or are necessarily fast on their feet.

As for all these newspaper stories and buildup, I let my eyes be the judge from the excellent film we have of Williams. He looks distinctly slower than Terrell when in the ring with him. And he clearly to me is much slower and physically supple than Ali.

If saying that, which to me is the truth, is crass, so I'm crass. I've been called worse. But I wish we could avoid name-calling.

 

Machen didnt think Williams was slow.

 

Next to Liston. Did Machen ever say he was faster than Patterson? But like a lot of quotes, what is the context? Machen was angling for a title shot against Liston and trying to get under Sonny's skin.

 

Have you seen this entire thread? The opening post alone, is all about omitting some of Williams' best wins while scraping the bottom of the barrel for Ingo's wins over unranked green fighters on losing streaks, and an unranked guy in his late 30s who never boxed again. He also cites Williams' past-prime losses while conveniently leaving out he was shot (literally) for a majority of those losses. But let's be fair to Valdez?

 

Do you know anyone who was considered faster than Patterson before Ali came along?FFS!
Did Eddie tell you that himself ?

 

I think the KO of a young Terrell, and the draw with Machen are Cleveland's best results, and the OP highlights both.

 

And his 13 losses 8 of which occurred after he was shot and 7 after he was 35. Two facts he somehow failed to mention!

 

Jason is Old Fogey/Edward Morbius. He clearly knows his stuff but seems to have an agenda against Williams (though not nearly as apparent as Choklab and our "objective" OP).

 

Like I said, that was one of the bad points in the OP. I agree.

 

"In a way he's ( William's ) tougher to fight than Liston because he has the speed the other doesn't have. You can't walk around Cleveland like you can Liston." -Eddie Machen

 

I said the OP omitted Williams' best WINS, so Machen's draw is obviously excluded. While Williams KO over a near prime Terrell is great, Miteff and Daniels were higher ranked when Williams beat them, victories which the OP conveniently left out yet had room to include an unranked guy in his late 30s in his last fight coming off a loss and had lost 3 of his previous 6 with 2 of his 3 wins coming against guys with losing records. Real objective.

 

Yet according to Jason Thomas, Williams is "rather slow"! lol!

 

I can't believe you're criticizing Williams because he was never said to be faster than Patterson, the consensus (with the possible exception of Ali but most still give Patterson the edge) fastest heavyweight of all time!

I doubt that. He knew that "draw" (which many thought was a gift) had just eliminated his chances.

 

Lol, as they say consider the source. If Greg Page Ko'd Cleveland Williams, he'd quickly become a big cat fan and would eat a testimonial like that up.

Ingo's manager said something like if we see Sonny Liston walling down the street, we quickly turn around and walk the other way.