Cleveland Williams is nowhere near even Ingemar Johansson in any OBJECTIVE metric.

There is no evidence that any other guy who drew with Machen and was out pointed by Ernie Terrell beats Floyd Patterson. Why Williams? I don’t get it. Patterson obliterated Charlie Powell who was just like Williams.

lots of people dared to fight Liston Twice. Summerlin, Whitehurst, Howard King, Marshall fought him 3 times. Ali fought him 2 times.

in comparison to Cleveland Williams who took longer to knock out Roger Rischer than London did? There are opponents who Williams did better against than London did. But one example like this is enough to say London must have had more of a dig on him than you would like to think?

 

It’s time for a thread on Wim Snoek

 

I agree. This business of people boosting Williams into some kind of world beater is like flogging a dead horse.

 

or maybe 15 more Gerry Cooney threads would be good

 

Just compiling for fun a ranking of all the heavyweight challengers who did not win the title, I have both in the top 20,(i'm at about 1980) Ernie one place ahead. Reason been that his resume is that bit stronger. H2H I'd have to watch whatever is available again, I forget the detail.

 

If I saw Liston walking down the street I would block his path.

 

That's fair.

 

Watched their second fight. My take, firstly I scored it like the ref and one of the judges, 46-44, 6 rounds to 4 for Terrell. I gave him, 1 and 2, clearly, 4 for been busy, 6 for his aggression, he stole the 7th by finishing strong, the 9th too but I was getting fed up of his holding and in fact gave Williams the last because of it. Cleaveland was a disappointment to me, he never caught Ernie, whose lateral movement and jab were superb, and couldn't seem to get off at times. I wouldn't argue if the ref deducted a round from Terrell and gave it to Williams to make it a draw but overall I thought a fair result with Ernie getting off first the key.

 

Good summary. Something also of note is that going in Williams was a lot more experienced than Terrell and Terrell winning was considered an upset. Williams had been a mainstay in the ratings for a few years by then, whereas Terrell first cracked the top ten the month of this fight.

 

That's why I laugh at @choklab's flat out lies that Williams was scared of Richardson a rematch. Despite being brutally knocked out in their first go, Williams still went ahead and fought Liston a second time but he's scared of fighting someone he soundly and decisively beat. Yeah sure

 

"Ernie Terrell, 198 1/2, fighting with a cut over his right eye, upset No. 4 ranked heavyweight contender Cleveland Williams, 210, Saturday night in a 10 round nationally televised bout at the Arena. Terrell won by a split decision. Terrell started off fast, winning the first two rounds. His best punch was his left jab which kept Williams off balance. Williams rallied strong in the 3rd round and stunned Terrell with a left hook which referee Pete Tomasco ruled a slip. After an even 4th round, Williams scored heavily in the 5th and opened the cut over Terrell's right eye. In the 6th, Terrell peppered Williams' right eye, and although it was not cut, it was so swollen he could hardly see out of it. Terrell rallied in the 9th which apparently won him the fight. He scored with a series of close combination punches. Williams won the 10th round over a tiring Terrell, who was physically exhausted at the end." - Associated Press
Tallies with how I saw it. Should have read it first and saved myself an hour!

 

I read a paragraph from the book entitled, Muhammad Ali Who Once Was Cassius Clay. In the paragraph, Cleveland stated that he had a nightmare that he had killed Richardson in the ring. The book is a good read.

 

I was a little disappointed at Cleve too. The only time Terrell appeared hurt was in round 3 when Terrell was floored only to be ruled a slip. I had the fight 5-5 on rounds, but gave the fight to Terrell on points.

 

In theme with what you're saying, Williams showed a lot of courage in fighting after the gunshot, and continuing to fight despite all of the losses he had. Facing Ali and Chuvalo at the times he did took a measure of courage.

 

If you think Terrell was floored wouldn't that be a 10-8 round and therefor a victory for Williams?