Cleveland Williams vs Brian London Primes

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by SuzieQ49, Nov 17, 2011.


  1. tommygun711

    tommygun711 The Future Full Member

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    Williams by KO, pretty easy pick. choklab just refuses to give credit to williams
     
  2. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    I do give him credit, he just was Not sonny liston.

    williams had a long career, always came to fight, had size and power, brave and had huge potential. He deserves to be credited in the same way as other fighters were who had simular wins and also made the ratings for a short time. he beat all the guys other contenders like that are expected to beat.
     
  3. DFW

    DFW Active Member Full Member

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    I agree with this 100%. London's bridge would come down in a hurry. Only saw him once and that was against Ali . That one was pathetic. Against a heavy hitter like Cleve Williams I can't see this one lasting much longer than the 3 round Ali blowout did.
     
  4. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    People could say that about williams if that was the only fight they ever saw of him against Ali.

    IMO it could be said williams looked like he had potential losing to other fighters.

    I have seen williams getting knocked out by Liston, getting knocked out by Ali, losing bravly to george chuvalo (in an albeit a very good fight) as well as beating a blond drifter in boxing gloves called james wiley in one round. Most people will be like me they have seen williams go 1-4 on filmed fights.

    However, have some decided because williams did well in losing to Liston he must also beat all the fighters that Liston and patterson beat?

    I dont hate williams I just dont think he paid his dues enough to beat floyd patterson.

    Maybe williams beats London. London was not that reliable either. On paper its not a missmatch though. It could of happened. williams did not knock out richardson or any other second teir contenders other than terrell who was not then rated. London did beat pastrano and folley he was not a bum any more than willaims was.
     
  5. red cobra

    red cobra Loyal Member Full Member

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    True enough, but being a Pastrano fan, I have to point out that Willie beat London as well.
     
  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    This is your whole problem. You bang on and on and ON about what you see on Boxrec, but fights aren't fought "on paper" and nor are they won there.

    Let's have your technical breakdown of the factors in this fight that make you see it as being so close.
     
  7. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    :good indeed.
     
  8. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    First of all, note that I have sat on the fence over this fight, I have never said London wins this fight.

    Secondly form can be read on paper going into a fight.

    My technical breakdown of the fight would be that London could maul his way around with williams like he did against valdes -a more proven fighter than williams - and make it pretty awful and close or williams could tag London early and make him wary putting london into survival mode for the distance.. Its quite possible both could be cut. williams has most chance outside and London has most chance inside. I think brian could outwork williams if given the upperhand. brian was as capable as george chuvalo of landing blows on williams- and george found plenty to land on williams. If williams and brian were both active now I would say williams deserves the edge but that London is still worth a chance. going off film it is no missmatch.
     
  9. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    1. You mean the washed up Valdes of 1960 who still managed to turn London's face into raw meat?

    2. Also your plan for little Brian London is to walk straight into a 6'3 215lb monster with cat like speed?


    Cleveland Williams was a better fighter than a Prime Valdes. The Valdes of 1960(who brian london lost too) would be no match for Big Cat Williams.

    Not at all. if London walks into Cleveland Williams he is going to get destroyed by Williams far superior strength, left hooks, and size.

    How? Williams was bigger, faster, stronger, better puncher, more stamina.

    Williams was beyond washed up when he fought Chuvalo. He was shot, both literally and figuratively. It's a shame you even bring this fight up to discredit Williams.

    Yes it is. We have one fighter, a short, soft, small untalented, unskilled, slowish non threatending fighter vs a chizzled 6'3 215lb punching assassin with blazing reflexes and electrifying handspeed.
     
  10. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I know that. Note that i've never said you said you would win the fight, just that you see it very differently from everyone else, and so perhaps you would like to explain why?

    Form can indeed, but scrambling together all of the information on a fighter's losses and saying "he might lose" is a spastic way to judge a fighter's form retrospectively, and that's what you've done.

    Lets look at that fight.

    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwomhydKtc0[/ame]

    You can see the problem with your take straight away. In the first clinch, it is Valdes who has his gloves outside of London's arms and London who pushes away. In the second clinch at 0:18 it is Valdes holding again. London again pushes away. Valdes, in his last ever pro fight, is basically doing a Hopkins, throwing a punch, and then falling in with it, trying to smother and supress a smaller foe with his superior bulk. London isn't "mauling his way" through anything, he's trying to escape these clinches. His strategy, clearly tipped in the first few moments of commentary, and perfectly displayed in the footage, is to make Valdes move a lot, to fight a mobile fight, to jab from the outside and remain active. It's a high-powered punching strategy, not a mauling one.

    0:30, Valdes again wants to clinch, London again pushes him away.
    0:35 Valdes wants to maul, London pushes him away.
    1:15 The two strategies meet as Valdes tries to fall into a clinch but London moves away jauntily, jabbing.

    There was some mauling in this fight, though not as much as you seem to think, but most of it was instigated by Valdes. There might be mauling against Williams but only if Williams fancies it.

    Also note that this mauling exhausted London, who wasn't physical enough for this type of fighting anyway. Note too that Valdes is dominating the close up exchanges by the end of the fight.

    Finally, note that London suffered a cut in this fight - you guessed it - in the mauling.

    So basically, your suggested strategy for London is to fight in a way that Nino Valdes made him fight in a fight where he was tired after only seven rounds and beaten specifically because he was forced to fight in this way. I think it's fair to say you may be off slightly here.


    And London losing to this more proven fighter in his very last fight when he had eye trouble proves what exactly?

    Which fights was Williams cut in?

    :lol:London is **** inside. You are making this up.

    Going off film Williams looks much better and London is a clear favourite.

    This is why London is losing the poll 17-2.

    Or does the impact of Tyson's career also make people think false thoughts about Williams?

    You are a fantasist.
     
  11. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Holy balls! I had no idea London-Valdes was on youtube
     
  12. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Prepare to be underwhelmed.
     
  13. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Damm Valdes looked really past it in 1960, what a **** loss for Brian London. Williams would have knocked that Valdes out early.

    Look at Valdes here in 1958
    [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucXgHJ0s8qg[/ame]

    Valdes still looked quite sharp, powerful, and dangerous. What the hell happened to him in a 2 year span?
     
  14. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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  15. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    you mean to say you never saw it before???