Cleveland Williams vs George Chuvalo

3 out of 10
2 out of 10
A surprisingly good fight on the part of a 40-year old Williams who pretty much only had the use of one leg. However, a pretty terrible fight to watch if you know how much better both these fighters were in the 60s.

 

Particularly Williams. Williams would’ve beaten Chuvalo in his prime and a TKO victory isn’t out of the question (though he’d likely have to settle for a UD).

 

This fight was on the undercard of Muhammad Ali vs Buster Mathis on Nov 17 1971 in Houston, Texas.

 

That's the way I'm leaning towards tbh. Amazing as Chuvalo's chin was, I always found it a bit overrated. He was stopped early by the only 2 significant punchers he fought (excluding an ultra-shot Dejohn) both of whom were very green.

 

It's just two old guys just hanging onto their careers by the skin of their teeth. That doesn't make it a good or a bad fight as far as being competitive or keep it from being interesting in its own way. I think if these guys fought earlier in their careers, say 1958-61, it would have been a lot like Williams' fight against Liston. It wouldn't have lasted too long, 6 or 7 rounds at the most. The consensus in this forum seems to be that Williams would stop Chuvalo in such an encounter. I'm not so sure. Liston outlasted Williams in slugging duels both times. I would pit Chuvalo's ability to take punishment against Liston's any day of the week. George might have outlasted Williams in an all-out slugging match. I see it as a 50-50 proposition. George was more out of his element against guys who could box a little like McMurtry, Rademacher, Folley, Erskine, and Alongi. Later on, Chuvalo became less aggressive against punchers and tended to cover up more. Against high quality competition, I believe he was more concerned with trying to preserve his "record" of never having been knocked down rather than going all out to win a fight. When he was younger he was trying to prove himself as a great fighter. When he got older he was just trying to maintain his reputation as a tough guy.

 

I actually quite like this fight. Both men not quite what they used to be (Big Cat more so) but an honest stoush as at that point in their careers with reasonable action.

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Both career heavy, 227 lb Chuvalo v 229!lb Williams. Edging ever so closer to SHW tonnage. LOL. The extra weight not so pronounced on Williams as it was on Chuvalo but neither guy looking at all like an overweight slob.

William’s, picked his moments, having that much less in his tank than Chuvalo but both were very tired toward the finish. Some of Cleve’s hits were Foremanesque, clearly ringing Chuvalo’s bell and causing him to back off, even if only momentarily. George usually marked up over the course of a fight but Williams’ had George’s face cut and swelling in quick time. At times when he let them fly, Williams’ hand speed was still quite impressive.

Williams chin not so china as some might have it, even with post gun shot wound impairments and at an advanced age anyway. He took some very hard shots throughout, obviously hurt at times but hung tough.

Basically, George was that much busier than Big Cat.

Note the TOTP flashed on screen at about 3:26. Chuvalo’s stats are faithful to previous fights. Cleve however has gained height at 6’ 3 1/2”. His arms are also listed at 17” which maybe fair given he had big arms anyway (15 1/2” to 16”) with some extra weight adding some size. A bit hard to read but his reach is listed as a whopping 86”! There maybe an extra 1/2” there but I don’t think so.

Fists weren’t listed but Williams’ as per visual evidence and previously listed stats (14”) weren’t exactly much smaller than Liston’s.

I’ve read that Chuvalo said Williams was one of the hardest punchers he faced but no more description than that. It seems people were more interested in George offering his opinion re Foreman and Frazier.

I would say at the least, we’re are very lucky to have vision of these older warriors banging it out and don’t forget that George posted a very good performance v Ali in an excellent fight overall some several fights later.

PS - note also when they show Ali in the inset box at one point awaiting the Mathis fight, he’s chewing his nails and his right hand is clearly shaking, likely nerves. Ali had said that he got nervous before some fights, not fear but a performance based anxiety.

 

Hurts seeing Big Cat fight after missing half his intestines.

 

I sure as hell wouldn't. Chuvalo might've had a better chin than Liston but I can't say for sure due to the lack of punchers Chuvalo faced and his 1-2 record against them. His sole win over a huge puncher was against an ultra shot Dejohn in his final bout. The other 2 significant punchers he faced stopped him early (despite both being green) and even Bonavena arguably dropped him twice

So again Chuvalo MIGHT have an advantage in the chin department but Liston was leaps and bound ahead of Chuvalo when it came to defense, power, strength, adaptability, which Chuvalo lacked and imo would be his downfall against Cleve.

 

I always thought Williams looked 6'3" to 6'4" in his prime.

 

Yeah, I always felt Williams was at least the same height as Ali if not a bit taller. Certainly I’d give him more than 6’2”. How about that listed reach though, 86”! Something is up there. Like how they inversely shaved Liston’s reach down to 80 1/2” for the Martin fight.

Before Liston’s fists were upsized to 15”-15 1/2”, he was generally afforded “14, sometimes 14 1/2”. Williams were listed as 14” also.

Check out Williams’ mitt compared to Ali’s. Huge.

https://images.fineartamerica.com/i...veland-williams-and-muhammad-ali-bettmann.jpg

Also, one of my favourite photos. They don’t actually look like they’re looking to fight one other as much as they appear to be joining forces to bust some other heads. These are the two guys I want in a bar fight. A third selection is superfluous, so much so, it might as well be Pee Wee Herman.

https://boxrec.com/media/images//2/20/Sonny_Cleveland.gif

 

It was a good fight for Chuvalo he looked better in this fight than he has in others but poor Williams was a shot fighter figuratively and literally. Williams could fight and bang but he wouldnt have had the power to stop Chuvalo...if Foreman couldn't drop him land flush power shots neither will the Cat....Chuvalo took shots from Folley, Durelle, DeJohn, Frazier, Foreman, Bonavena, Patterson, Quarry and Ali and never faltered...though it could be argued that had the ropes not been there Bonavena dropped him but it seemed a bit off balance. I will say that Chuvalo was a beautiful and dedicated body puncher and Williams took it well....Williams was a tough man

 

The only reason Foreman "couldn't drop him" was because the ref stopped it before he had a chance to. What do you think would've happened if the ref allowed it to go on?

 

This was a very entertaining fight between two veterans who still had a lot of desire. Both wanted to win and there was no quit in either guy.

If these guys fought in their prime it would almost certainly be the same result. They are of the same kind of level.