Cleveland Williams vs George Chuvalo

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by OP_TheJawBreaker, Jul 11, 2021.

  1. Pugguy

    Pugguy Active Member Full Member

    Aug 22, 2021
    Not being cute but what do you think might’ve happened?

    Do you think Chuvalo goes down and how many more shots would it have taken, ballpark? Or was Chuvalo the type of iron chinned boxer who would have to be literally out on his feet first before slithering to the canvas?

    The big left hook that started the hellacious sequence appeared to be the cleanest and most flush single shot of the lot and it was the punch that most visibly hurt (stagger) Chuvalo. The force of Foreman’s punches were also such they could literally force fighters up, down, back etc. as if they were being pushed/hurled around.

    Chuvalo steeled for the following onslaught, ever backing away. Powerful, clubbing and hurtful shots poured in, no question. Chuvalo was in survival mode, not throwing back lest he compromise himself further but I didn’t see his legs dip again or detect loss of cognisance otherwise.He only really offered one punch back and it was just as the ref was stopping the fight.

    There was still just under 1/2 a rd to go. Could Chuvalo have hung tough for the time remaining and could Foreman keep up his own output which he had really cut loose on going for the KO/TKO?

    I will say I’ve never seen Chuvalo looks so disconcerted with each and every one of his opponents punches landed as he did v Foreman. He almost looked shocked by Foreman’s power. And that was from the very outset. Though well metered, the amount of serious leather Foreman put to Chuvalo even before stunning him was like a 15 rd going over compressed into just 2 and a bit rds.

    Actually a great performance by Foreman.

    Of course Chuvalo was still yet to give Ali a very tough duke over 12 rds also so Foreman certainly didn’t feast on a veteran ready to be taken.
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  2. Entaowed

    Entaowed Boxing Addict Full Member

    Dec 16, 2012
    Your usually scholarly intellectual rigor has failed you my friend.
    In a single instance which I will cherry-pick & ignore all your excellent writing, story telling skills & erudition.

    If Williams had an 86" wingspan it would mean he had nearly the longest "ape factor" in recorded history.
    Tied for first if he was really 6' 2" as I can find him listed in at least one place.
    Liston's +11" is controversial, sometimes it is listed at ~what Williams is listed at in every source I can find-80", or 79" in the Tale of the Tape against Ali.
    But Liston with his huge hands + very broad chest at least had a relatively longer wingspan than Williams (being shorter).

    Very rarely you will see a +11" listed & occasionally it might be legitimate-like 5' 11" boxer Maurice Hooker.
    The longest in basketball in absolute terms? Easily Manutre Bol. 7' 7" & an 8'.6" reach.
    This is also near the longest reaches produced by any humans (most giant's not measured in wingspan), I believe world's tallest man Robert Wadlow went 8'11"...With 5" longer wingspan, & I think the largest hands (& feet) ever).

    Efe Ajagba is a Nigerian prospect who has been listed as 88"/+12"(!) ape factor, but other sources have him lower-& when multiple listings are there, it is much more likely the lower # is correct.

    But the longest seemingly reliable ape factor I have ever found is this B-ball player.
    +12", & if he is actually "only" 6'8" as occasionally listed (heights commonly exaggerated or taken in sneakers), then it is +13".
    It seems that he is the only human that legitimately has, or had, at least a full foot of wingspan above his height.

    Visual evidence & many web site details
    This content is protected
    This article describes Anya having the longest wingspan of any player ever drafted by the NBA.
    But as a comment makes clear, they forgot about Manute Bol.
    Who was a 190 or 195 lbs stringbean then & could not squat 40 lbs before training.

    Anywho, there is video of BJ Anya's incredible wingspan-would look longer if he was not heavy.
    Thus Spake Zarathrusta.

    This content is protected
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  3. Pugguy

    Pugguy Active Member Full Member

    Aug 22, 2021
    Haha. Misread my good man. You’re shooting the messenger. I highlighted the 86” from the broadcast. Period. I don’t subscribe to it, as my follow up post reaffirmed.

    I too am aware of Cleve’s reach being listed otherwise as 79” to 80” with sizeable hands even if not quite as big as Liston’s. Sonny’s 84” maybe a tad inflated anyway, I’ve also read 82 1/2” quoted elsewhere a few times. The broadcast for the Leotis Martin fight singularly cut Sonny down to 80 1/2”.

    I don’t know if he was simply deferring to stats but the commentator for Liston - Williams 1 made a point of constantly repeating that Williams had the greater reach. I perceived Sonny’s reach to be a bit longer than Cleve’s and 2” to 3”’extra across the span isn’t going to look so pronounced per arm (eg. trading jabs).
  4. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

    Dec 31, 2009
    Tale of the tape has never been an exact science in boxing.

    The last 50 years the measurements for boxers are largely Mumbo Jumbo.

    if we took them seriously then boxers would be shrinking and growing more reach and height all of the time. The numbers are all made up.
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  5. OP_TheJawBreaker

    OP_TheJawBreaker NOBODY hit like that guy! Full Member

    Jun 23, 2021
    These are the sole reasons why I feel Chuvalo's chin is massively overrated
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  6. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Boxing Junkie Full Member

    Jul 30, 2014
    An absolutely laughably baseless assumption.
    Did Chuvalo ever draw with a peak Machen, the number 2 contender or reach number 2 himself?

    Williams is frequently mentioned among the elite in the 60s (before he was shot) along with Machen, Liston, and Ali. Is Chuvalo mentioned in the same vain?
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  7. Reinhardt

    Reinhardt Boxing Junkie Full Member

    Oct 4, 2016
    I thought the most obvious thing to take away from this fight was Williams was a shell of his former self while Chuvalo was still throwing crisp punches and it was surprising Chuvalo couldn't stop a guy this past it. A prime pre-shot Big Cat I believe would beat George in a good scrap
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  8. Entaowed

    Entaowed Boxing Addict Full Member

    Dec 16, 2012
    I did not see your seemingly corrective post when I wrote, but methinks the one I am commenting on you accidentally indicated an affirmation of William's listed reach.
    "A bit hard to read but his reach is listed as a whopping 86”! There maybe an extra 1/2” there but I don’t think so."

    If you did not mean to say that, it must have referred to the extra 1/2" in height you alreay indicated The Big Cat was accredited with.

    But I agree that Liston had a longer reach than him.
    And also if his hands were even longer &/or he was a little wider across the chest, you might not notice any wingspan difference is the arms are about the same.
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  9. Pugguy

    Pugguy Active Member Full Member

    Aug 22, 2021
    LOL. You’re trying to lead the witness. There was no accident or necessary subsequent correction.

    As you quoted me, I stated his reach as it was literally conveyed on the broadcast. An affirmation of what was on screen. I said there maybe another 1/2” there, meaning: it is hard to read, I could make out 86 but wasn’t sure if it was followed by a 1/2, and I said ultimately no, that I didn’t think so.

    Have you seen the stats that were flashed up on screen? Not the easiest to read due to the white canvas in the background.

    In a later post I added “something is up there” re the listed reach.

    Anyway, as far as width/breadth of chest and shoulders go, Williams actually appeared broader than Liston anyway. You can see for yourself that Williams also had long arms but Sonny’s that bit more so.

    To better approximate to Liston’s listed reach of 84”, they also jumped Ali’s up from 79” to 82” for the TOTP. With such inflations, including height, it gives a false impression of how such reaches and heights might appear in real life. You might have two legit 6’3” guys claiming 6’4” and standing next to one another, they will falsely appear to corroborate each other’s claim.

    With Liston, 84” might’ve represented the “new”. 82” or so reach - the latter being no mean wingspan anyway and perhaps closer to the truth for Sonny.
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  10. Pugguy

    Pugguy Active Member Full Member

    Aug 22, 2021
    Just some links to a FB page dedicated to the Big Cat containing pages from an article on Williams that might be of interest.

    Last edited: Dec 5, 2021