Cleveland Williams vs Ingemar Johansson

Exactly.

Great point, especially about Cooper. Cooper DROPPED (not merely "rocked") the same young Ali that made Liston quit twice. So does that make him the favorite against Ingo? - or Liston for that matter?

 

It may be true, I don't know, I don't have the original magazines.
Choklab said he has the originals. He may be mistaken though.
Suzie quoted something that was NOT the original against Choklab's claims from the original.
I think that's funny. Still, Suzie's source may be right, but it needs to be verified with the originals, in which case Choklab is mis-reading the original source.

Do you have the RING magazine ratings for every month. ?
That's what we are talking about.

(Not that I put much value in them myself but they seem to be a holy scripture around here sometimes)

 

I have a lot of the Ring Magazines too

 

So your saying Liston was afraid of Ingo ? Get rel please. Ingo sucked, period. He is without exception rated as one of the poorest heavyweight champions ever. Build him up if that is what you believe. I say you're wrong, and that he was a severly limited champion .

 

I find you guys with your hairsplitting funny. Ingo sucked, period. He got extremely lucky v.s. Machen and Patterson. Watch the film of the Machen fight and see how long the ref lets him tee off on Eddie . It was pathetic. I truly believe that was the one out of ten he ever would have beaten Machen. As far as Floyd goes, as much as he is liked and respected he was always a small heavyweight with a weak chin and very inconsistant ..I think Williams take Ingo's head off in a round or two ... I see this as a heavyweight version of Benn v.s. Barkley except Ingo lacked Iran's heart ...

 

What you're saying about Ingo being one of the poorer champions isn't wrong, but that's still more than Williams was able to accomplish with three times the fights. A limited champ is still better than a limited contender, no disrespect intended for Williams.

 

I have original complete 1956 ring magazines with european champion franco cavicchi rated in the top ten, obviously then as now the news is old by the time it makes the actual issue but franco is rated in several months.. boxrec has erskine rated in 1959 in the anual ring magazine ratings, I have not located magazines from that year yet but i shal check those to see if he made the ratings in 58- I imagine so. I have complete 1960-61 magazines that will have richardson rated - he beat mildenburger for the euro title in 62 but won it in 1960. within most top tens a european champ and curent british champ can be listed, it was a good level since american fighters often fought in europe. typicaly european champions with a win or two over fringe americans were a lock for a ring magazine ranking.

 

No, that would be as childishly stupid as saying Ingo was afraid of Liston.

So how "sucky" are guys that were blown out quickly by Johansson?

Which would still put him a level above a so-so contender like Williams.

I don't have to. Quick KOs of Machen and Patterson speak for themselves.

 

This "argument" doesn't make any sense.

So because the ref gave Machen too many chances and stopped the fight too late, that meant Ingo was "lucky" to win? :huh

 

This. :deal

 

Switch Roles:

Johansson goes 0-2 vs Liston
Williams goes at least 1-2 vs Patterson


Johansson got the luckier draw

 

Thats your opinion. even so with williams not rated during floyds times as a champion i cant imagine why they should fight?

 

No, "switch roles" and Williams doesn't even get a shot at Patterson because he wasn't good enough to beat Machen first.

 

exactly. by 1957 bob satterfeild was the only name on his record and williams best wins before facing liston were unrated 31-13 frankie daniels or 27-16 john holman both on worrying losing streaks. there was nothing there that warranted an official eliminator or title shot. the utter pounding from liston wouldnt earn him a shot either...

 

In a similar vein, how about Ruddock vs Moorer?