Cleveland Williams vs Ingemar Johansson

Except for Ingo being the more durable, this is basically exactly how I see it. Williams was lax with his defense and Ingo was cagey and knew how to sucker guys into his big right - not exactly the best style matchup for Williams, I'd say. On top of the fact that Ingo generally showed himself to be a higher caliber of fighter.

 

He kayoed Alex Miteff who was top 10 rated by ring magazine at the time.

 

Speaks volumes that a guy who had lost 3 of his last 4 was in the top 10.

 

Exactly.

Actually, that's exactly the kind of style that troubled Liston throughout his career - guys who gave him some movement and looked to land some sneak punches. Look at how an cruiser-sized journeyman like Bert Whitehurst went the distance with Liston twice and made him work for the win each time with just with some clever movement and some sneak pot shots. Why wouldn't Ingo be expected to give him at least as good a fight as that?

 

Cleveland Williams is not facing Muhammad Ali here. He is facing Ingemar Johansson. A notorious weak chinned champion who avoided fighting the big punchers. Now Johansson was a very good fighter, devastating right hand, clever boxer, quite sneaky...but Williams with his size, speed, and power would be an animal Johannson never faced before. Johansson could not shake off floyd patterson's left hooks. Williams has a big time left hook and he can triple it in combination. I think Johansson would play it too safe, and williams would break through johansson's gaurd and knock him out before johansson could set him up with a big right hand.

Seamus,

Honestly, enough with the degrading of the competition. It gets old. Ernie Terrell, Archie Moore, Eddie Machen, Zora Folley, Nino Valdes, Floyd Patterson, Sonny Liston, Cassius Clay, Harold Johnson, Henry Cooper, Ingemar Johansson, Johnny Summerlin, Bob Cleroux, Doug Jones, George Chuvalo, Mike DeJohn were all part of the late 1950s-early 60s heavyweight scene. All of these men look pretty good to my eyes on film, and some look spectacular. A solid era. Filled with both skillfull boxers, and dangerous punchers.

 

Because the moment Ingo gets hit, he is going to be knocked out. Ingemar has a very shaky chin, and liston would not let him off the hook. I also think Liston has the durability to take 1 or 2 of Ingemar's big rights if he has too.

Liston would just straight out physically dominate ingemar. Floyd Patterson had no answer for Liston because Liston was way too strong and powerful for him. It will be the same for Ingemar. Ingemar would get a hammer of a jab in his face, then get smashed to the canvas by clubbing rights and wicked left hooks. Ingemar was a stationary target. No head movement, just a high gaurd. He would be a sitting duck for Liston. To beat Liston, you need elite speed/cagey movement. You cannot beat liston fighting stationary.


Liston KO 2 Johansson

 

Since when does Ingo have a history of being KO'd "the moment" he gets hit?

As did Whitehurst.

 

Liston did knock the **** out of whitehurst lmao. Whitehurst did not know who he was for like 20 minutes after the fight I thought that could have been ruled a TKO. Anyways..irrelevant.

Let's say Ingo somehow does survive Liston early, stick to a cautious stick and move gameplan and fights defensively throughout the fight. Jab Jab occasional big right hand. He is still going to get outboxed, he is still going to get outjabbed, he is still going to get outlanded, and he is still going to get outmuscled. One or two big right hands here or there is not going to be enough. Liston beats him wide on the cards. Liston also had nice head movement, he would be far less of a stationary sitting duck than johansson would be.

 

He doesn't. However, Liston has a history of knocking people out the moment he hurts them. Johansson does have a history of shitting his pants when in the ring vs a 215lb monster(cough cough Ed Sanders). He acted so disgracefully they refused his silver medal. Embarrasingly, Johansson was also lucky to survive a 12th round knockdown against brian london. Johansson got up, out on his feet, saved by the bell. London couldn't knock a sick infant off a potty seat.

 

I hate to attack Johansson like this. I rate him very fairly(In my top 30 all time). I think he was a near great fighter. I think all of the elite boxers in history(charles, walcott, schmeling, tunney, patterson, corbett, holmes, etc) better watch out if they face johansson...because he has a good shot against all of them. I happen to also think big punchers are Johansson's weak spot. Just my opinion.

 

Actually, that's not a "history." It was a single incident that happened before he even turned pro. That would be like saying Liston has a "history" of getting his jaw broken and embarrassed by blown up LHW journeymen (Marty Marshall).

 

I would argue liston's was a one time deal because Liston did avenge his loss to Marshall, TWICE. In very destructive fashion. Such fashion that marshall described it as "Being beaten like no man should ever be. When I faced him the third time, no way would I ever let him hit me again. I ran for 10 rounds."

Did Johansson avenge his loss to Sanders? Did he ever take on a menacing 6'1-6'4 210-220lb heavyweight contender in his pro career? Did he take on any punchers outside of patterson?(who knocked him out twice)

What's your position here...do you think johansson would win or not?

 

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Johansson looks like a scared child in here. I can only imagine Ingemar's fear when he would meet liston in the middle of the ring. He might run from Liston for 12 rounds. On a side note, Liston fought Ed Sanders the following year and beat him. Liston, with less than 10 amatuer bouts, beat the Olympic Champion.

 

They were both "one time deals" because they only happened ONCE. But on top of that, Johansson's happened in the amateurs and was irrelevant to his pro career.

Sanders completely flopped as a pro and lost to far lesser fighters than Johansson in his brief career - thus further illustrating the irrelevance between pro and amateur boxing.

He beat guys that were as big as that and were even better and more successful as pros than Sanders was.

Yes, Henry Cooper.

Just like he did against Machen, while waiting for the opening to drop the bomb on him:

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In fact he had a reputation for awkwardly "running" and being ultra defensive while setting up his opponents for a big punch.

Maybe he would - but that would contradict your earlier claim that he would be an easy target and a surefire quick KO victim, and would likewise be more than Williams could ever do against Liston.

 

Dragging amateur records into affairs of professionals is desperation at its worst.

I suppose I should have bet on Jorge Luis Gonzalez and Duane Bobick to be world heavyweight champs.

It was a weak ****ing era. The fighters, outside of the emerging Liston, were grossly flawed and underwhelming. The lightheavies who were competitive were the best thing going. The fact that Williams could not make a further mark in that era, given his physical assets and the paucity of talent, speaks loudly to the fact he was not a first class fighter at heart.