Cleveland Williams vs Ingemar Johansson

Cleveland Williams must have been the pioneer of "modern nutrition" !

 

Actually, I'm not even sure Williams even had much of an advantage in handspeed over Johansson.
He was quick for his size, but Ingo could put that right in with some deadly speed too.

I wonder exactly which Williams fights people have seen to be making these claims of his skill and prowess ?

 

Terrell his his stride a bit earlier than that, 8 months after being kod by Williams he was ranked no 3,and ,when he beat Williams by split dec in 63 , 46-44 46-44- 44-46, he was rated no 3,Young and unranked? Their second fight was only a year later
Ingo destroyed the wolrd champion , yes once out of three fights, what happened in the other 2?
Its very possible Williams may have destroyed the world champion too, if he had got the chance, Floyd woud not fight him , Terrell, or Folley,and he did not fight Machen till after he had lost his title.Floyd took Ingo because D'Amato thought he was an easy touch .
After losing to Williams ,Terrell went 15 fights, and 5 years before losing to Ali,beating,Lincoln,Folley,Machen,Chuvalo,Foster,Jones ,Zech,Williams along the way.That is a more in depth resume than Ingo can boast for his total career..
Johannsons reputation rests on 2 wins,one of which was emphatically avenged TWICE and Machen never got a chance to do like wise.
I think Machen beats Ingo 7 out of 10 times.
I think Ingo got lucky catching an overconfident Machen early.
I think Ingo is one of the poorest champions to hold the title.
I think he was carefully managed and avoided many world class men.
I think he only fought 2 , men who could really be classed as top level .

Thats what I think.:good

 

Yes, only a year later, and already Terrell was doing better against Williams.
You seem to be arguing that Terrell must have been good in fight 1 because Williams failed to knock him out or gain the decision a year later.
Ok, if that's reasonable, it still doesn't reflect particularly well on Williams.
These two fights and a DRAW with Machen are his crowning achievements.

As for Terrell, even at the absolute height of his career he was just spoiling his way to decisions, with a long but feeble jab and some clinching. A decent boxer, yes, but his high rating was a reflection of a lack of depth in the heavyweight ranking, IN MY OPINION.

.... and D'amato was proved wrong.
Anyway, Johansson was the top contender, had destroyed Machen.
Folley was beaten by Henry Cooper around this time too, so Ingo really was the outstanding contender, regardless of the Patterson camp's reasons for fighting him.
Yes, Folley and Machen were "ducked" by Patterson, but Williams wasn't - he simply wasn't considered a leading contender. He was no one to be "ducked", not on anyone's reckoning.

It's laughable that you mention guys like Zech and Bob Foster and Lincoln to back up Terrell's "strong" resume, and insist that Johansson fought nobodies outside of Machen and Patterson. If Zech was on Johansson's win column you'd dismiss him as euro-level mediocrity, I think.

Ingemar beat Machen 1 out of 1 times, just like Liston did, but in more emphatic manner, just as Patterson did, just as Terrell did (Patterson and Terrell got a past prime version and failed to stop him too), and just as Williams DID NOT.

Your "7 out of 10" assessment is pure fantasy island.

The truth is Johansson was a deceptively good, tricky fighter and a ferocious puncher but didn't have the outside-the-ring discipline to have great longevity. He wasn't a great champion at all, by taken at his peak in the late 50s he was a lot better than he's being given credit for.
I don't rate him or Patterson particularly highly at all, but he's a cut above Cleveland Williams who only ever produced so-so performances when he stepped up against good opposition.

 

Johansson actually surprised most people by how well he did in the third Patterson fight. He was known to be washed-up and overweight, dissipated through his night-clubbing lifestyle, and shell-shocked by the vicious KO he'd suffered in fight 2.
Johansson was fat and shot and put up a good fight.
2 years earlier he'd been a much better fighter.

Johansson didn't get "lucky" against Machen. That's just the old "lucky punch" excuse people use when they don't like the way things turned out.
Johansson was a powerful right-hand puncher, and a good counterer.
He knocked Patterson out in his next fight. I guess he "got lucky" twice in a row, against the best two fighters in the world, and just coincidently at his physical peak as a pro fighter ??

Johansson didn't avoid "many" world class men. There weren't many around. He fought in Sweden, where he could draw a huge crowd, and fought the best in Europe, then called the number 1 contender over from America, whipped him easily and then went over to America and whipped the world champion.

Cleveland Williams, who was based in the USA his whole career, and fought about every month or two, spent years upon years fighting absolute tomato can fighters, easy set-ups. Talk about careful management. Williams has far more padding on his record.

 

A. I do not think he would. Liston puts Johansson away in about 3 rounds. Floyd Patterson twice put Johansson away in 5 and 6 rounds.

B. I just brought it up because I found it hilarious johansson fought so disgraceful in the Olympic finals. He looked like a scared jackrabbit in there. Johansson had the look on his face of "I don't wanna get killed".

 

Umm..No. It's called no one wanted to fight Cleveland Williams.

There were plenty. Sonny Liston was fighting most of them. How come Johansson never fought any big punchers?

 

I gave you 15 names of rated heavyweights Ingo did not fight , give me 3 he did.

 

Maybe in some cases. Maybe some didn't want to fight Johansson either.

Who specifically refused to fight Williams ?

Williams' manager must have spent a lot of time lining up fights with fourth-raters though, becaise he did a great job at it.

Dick Richardson, who Johansson KO'd, was willing to fight Williams twice, and Williams ran out of the rematch at the last second. That's as funny as Ingo's Olympic farce, don't you think ?

He fought Machen and Patterson, two decent punchers. Beat them before Liston did it.
I guess you think Johansson "avoided" big punchers, but maybe he was avoided for being abig puncher too ! It cuts both ways.

 

Richardson was getting a hiding from Williams, and fouled out to save himself further punishment get real.Why would Williams be frightened of Richardson?

Now, how about naming all the rated fighters, Ingo fought?

ps It won't take you long.

 

Another 4, to go with the 15 Ingo somehow missed

Dejohn
Lavorante
Daniels
Cleroux

 

Williams being scared of Richardson is about as relevant as Ingo being scared of Sanders in the Olympics,. That's my point.
Have you seen the Williams-Richardson fight ?

You seem to be arguing stupid stubborn points. Ingemar did better against common opponents of caliber, and has better achievements, that much has been pointed out by several postors in this thread. You're intelligent enough not to contend the basics but your shifting the argument. But still, by backing Williams you are backing the wrong horse. His failures and ommissions at top level are worse than Ingo's.

I don't know exactly how many "rated" fighters Ingemar Johansson fought, because I don't know whose ratings you are going by.
But let's settle on TWO : Machen and Patterson.
Let's be clear of the FACTS -
Ingo had only 28 pro fights in his entire career.
He fought and beat Machen (# 1 contender) and Patterson (champion) within his first 22 fights.

I think it's fair to say that for his last 5 fights he was past it and had no real ambitions.

It's pure spin to portray Ingemar as some carefully managed fighter who habitually avoided top fighters. In actual fact he was a short-lived good contender/champ, a flash-in-the-pan, who fought a good level of opposition in 22 fights, winning the world title in the process.

Compared to Williams his quality shines through.
We've already established that Williams' best WIN is over Terrell, Did we establish whether or not Terrell was a "rated" fighter ? I think he was not.
Other than that, he has a DRAW with Machen, who Ingo blasted out years earlier.
And he was beaten up by Liston twice too.
None of which happened in Williams first 22 fights. Williams was fighting legions of tomato cans at the stage in his career when Ingo was stepping up against the world's best.
Those are the facts.

 

Yes I've seen it. Have you?

You're pretty free with the epiphets, but rather slower in addressing the fact Ingo only fought 2 rated men.

Put him in with Folley,Liston, Wiliams ,Terrell,Valdes. His resume would perhaps look a little different .



Some fringe contenders he also somehow missed.
Carter
Johnson
King
Powell
Rischer

The title was tied up for 3 years, while he, and the resident tumble bunny Patterson ,played pass the parcel with it, and no other ****er could get a look in.

The guy was protected END OF.

 

Yes.
I don't think Richardson was doing well at all but Williams didn't look great either.
I haven't seen much of Cleveland Williams in winning fights, admittedly. Perhaps he saw better nights.

I don't know what happened for him to pull out of the Richardson rematch. But, as I said, if Johansson had done so, it would be used as ammo to call him "scared". Some critics had no qualms about declaring Williams scared at the time. It's understandable.

Not at all.
I do wonder what your definition of "rated men" is though.
You seem to be listing a load of men who may have been rated at some point in the time of Ingo's career. I suspect a double standard.
Obviously Ingemar fought more than two men who were rated near to the year he beat them, the same standard you use for Williams beating a "rated" Terrell. If Terrell counts, then so does Cooper on Johansson's ledger, since Cooper became top 4 rated the following year.
As for guys like Lavorante and Daniels - what is Ingo supposed to fight them on the brief month or two they managed to get a ranking from RING magazine ?

Yes.
But the facts are he stepped up to fight the world's number 1 contender after 20 fights

"He somehow missed" - you jest, surely.
You can do this with any fighter. And it's really easy when you know the guy only had 28 fights TOTAL.
If he had fought those guys but had "missed" Erskine, Neuhaus, Cooper et al. you'd be kicking up a stink with a different list of names.
It's not convincing and it's transparent.

Protected from WHO ?
He certainly wasn't protected from the number 1 contender and the world champion.
So what are you talking about ?

You can't blame Johansson for the title being tied up.

 

Johanson could hit as shown with the devastating Machen KO, but he looked awkward running. Ingo was not a pressure fighter but he had power.

His style was to run and I would not give any credence to the REF DQing him because of his fight strategy. Larry Holmes was DQ'd by Duane Bobick for excessive holding vs Bobick and Ali commenting on the fight said it was Holmes way of quitting. I do not think either of these were a courage issue but a survival strategy. Ingo was an awkward runner.