Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by The Undefeated Lachbuster, Apr 12, 2019.
Really !!!! ??? You never got in a ring with him ROFL
I mentioned earlier Cobb was basically an arm puncher. He was was just rugged and determined and that can go a long way. I'm not sure if I ever saw Cobb apply proper leverage to his punches besides the jab. He just mauled opponents.
To be honest and no offense to anyone but I'm shocked that this topic has been going on even this long. Cobb would have been beaten to a pulp imo. He simply didn't have the power to keep Williams from bashing him.
Lets have a look.
Williams had been boxing for 20 years, Chuvalo for 15.
Williams was 38, Chuvalo 34.
Williams had 90 bouts under his belt, Chuvalo 82.
Chuvalo rated comfortably in the top 10 that year, Williams hadn't been for 5 years plus.
Not buying it at all. At any rate we would hardly rate fighters on performances when they are shot, literally as well!
Williams was never much good post 64 after being shot. It's incredible that he even made it back into a boxing ring. He suffered much irreparable damage, losing a kidney just being one part of it.
I love Cobb, so awesome I’m his day... but Williams should win by a pretty wide ud
I suspect Cobb would stop him late. I am surprised by some of the rancor about choosing one decent challanger over another.
Cleveland was an impressive looking guy, but I think you are confusing him when you compare him to aRazor Ruddock type contender. Ruddock was legitimately capable of knocking out rated heavyweights of a larger ilk than Williams did. As a 33-1 prospect (who had already reversed the only loss he had) Williams was exposed badly by a light heavyweight some 24lb lighter when he was knocked out by Bob Satterfeild,. After that Williams fought some more cans but the very next time he was competitively matched he was knocked out again albeit by Sonny Liston. Between crushing knockouts from Liston and Ali, all before he was shot by a policeman, Williams registered only fair wins at fringe level. Outpointing Billy Daniels was about as good as it got, although-even Daniels staggered him. There was a win over a young Terrell before Ernie had found his feet as a pro, a win Williams could not replicate after Terrell had turned a corner and begun beating the kinds of guys he had previously lost to before meeting Williams. That resulted in a points loss for Cleveland. Then a draw with Machen which is a decent result on paper but not a signature win and certainly not a knockout win. The power of Williams was never a factor when he was competitively matched.
All of this sits comparably as well with Randal Tex Cobb. I certainly feel Cobb is the kind of fighter Williams should be compared to because he did not eclipse that kind of fighter in real life,
And drew with Machen
Where are Cobb's comparable results?
Williams was ranked
Then he was shot
Cobb was ranked ;
Williams was demonstrably the superior fighter.
I agree, It is miraculous that Williams made such a recovery, especially when his career began to follow the exact same pattern when he resumed his career.
After he was shot by a policeman Williams could still beat the kinds of guys he was beating before and he was still losing to the kinds of men he always lost to before. If he was losing more fights let’s remember he was also fighting less cans and more prospects as a veteran campaigner.
Look at the record. Who was Williams losing to that he could have beaten before? Chuvalo? Ali? Mac Foster? Bob Cleroux? Where is the evidence he was beating that kind of fighter before? Two fights before the end Williams beat a recent title challenger Terry Daniels in 1972 who was about as good an opponent as Williams career best win over Billy Daniels back in 1963.
You haven't managed to get a dig in on Liston yet can we expect one soon?
Daniels and perhaps Miteff had a ranking at the time, all the other guys you mentioned really are beneath consideration. They were just other men who lost hard each time they stepped up, even Terrell at that point, since he was still losing to Wayne Bethea and twice to johnnyGray, Ernie was proving he had not yet got over the hump he needed to as a pro. The rematch with Ernie even cancelled out that win anyway. This leaves Billy Daniels and Terry Daniels and perhaps Miteff.
It’s not a Sonny Liston thread? Sonny was a fabulous talent compared to Williams and Cobb. A great, great fighter in his era. I don’t understand this fetish you have for John Thomas and Sonny Liston?
You don't feel it might be slightly hypocritical to dismiss Williams' win over a "young" 22 year old Terrell while simultaneously claiming that Williams was "exposed" by a loss when he was 20?
This is easy to agree with.
Yes I see what you mean. These could be explained away as blips for both Williams and Terrell during an apprenticeship so long as both fighters went on to better things. However, before meeting Satterfeild Williams had already had his blip against Sylvester Jones. He beat Jones in a rematch in one round. So he had overcome this.
I’m not sure Williams really got much better after Satterfeild, he had 34 fights already. By comparison Ernie really turned it around after he was exposed. Terrell went on to beat guys like Machen, Folley, Chuvalo, Williams in a rematch and Doug Jones. Where as Williams remained a kind of eternal prospect who would rack up spectacular knockouts until he was against decent men who hit him back.
To be as fair as I can, Williams was able to scrape results like the draw with Machen and taking Terrell quite close, proving he could compete at a better level, but he was never dominant or reliable here. The dominance Williams had was at a lower level. Strictly At world level, Williams is a kind of myth as a puncher.