Cleveland Williams vs Roy Harris 1959

He wasnt on tv because you dont get air time fighting trial horses at best. When he started stepping up he got tv time and lost most of those, that usually doesnt get you back on tv in that era where there were great great fights and intriguing matchups on tv on regular basis. Also, he was fighting mostly in texas and you dont see a lot of tv fights coming out of texas. He may have fought on local tv (that was fairly common in that era) but until he started fighting in some of the other venues that regularly broadcast fights (and consequently against better fighters) he didnt get many national tv dates.

I dont believe Williams was poorly managed at all. If you believe he was poorly managed youd have to say the same about Harris (Who wasnt poorly managed either) because both were trained and managed by the same team. Both guys made it high into the rankings and got title shots. Very few HWs could say that when there was only 1 belt.

 

"I don't believe Williams was poorly managed at all"

Harris did about all that could be expected of him. He had about the best career he could have had.

Do you think Williams had the best career he could have had?

It is at least odd for a manager to argue that Williams is much better than Harris (and the two were about the same age) while Harris is fighting top men and Williams is just spinning his wheels and not really going anywhere.

 

Why did you just say he wasn't At his best against Machen and Terrell...you aren't making sense anymore.

 

You're posting about what happened in the sixties.

I'm asking what happened in the late fifties when Harris was fighting top men,

It makes little sense to me that his management would wait years to try to move Williams faster.

Williams would have been 32 for a title fight in 1965 and possibly slowing up a bit even w/o the shooting.

 

Actually not really, one got Baker, one got Holman, both got Liston, one got Besmanoff, one got DeJohn...the difference is one beat Pastrano the other drew with Machen.

 

maybe I misread your best of comment

 

Williams never fought DeJohn,

you mean Miteff?

Harris' fights were mostly in the fifties--he fought Baker and Pastrano in 1957,

Wiliams did fight Holman in 1957 and Liston in 1959, but most of his fights against rated opposition came in the 1961 to 1964 period.

 

Williams had his 1951-54 Florida career which ended with the spectacular Satterfeild loss. He had two years out and started his next 1956-1964 Texas career which ended when he was shot. Then Williams had his 1966-1972 post shooting career.

In his Florida career he reached a point where he was almost ready to step up but disaster struck at 27-0 on the Marciano v Lastarza card. There was a gentle build up of opposition, A quick rebuild before he was thrown in with Satterfeild. I don't think his management did too bad a job. Some of his opponents were a bit odd but Agramante and Simmons were reasonable trials. A Satterfeild win could have launched him into the big time and with as many fights as he had by then he was ready for a step up twice but he failed twice.

The Texas career was almost a new era. He was stepped up far quicker. Albright Holman and Richardson were the kind of opponents a decent outfit would select as good building fights toward taking on a real contender. Howie Turner was a good choice nobody knocked him out. Neither did Williams. Good rounds with Frankie Daniels although Liston knocked him out. Some opponents were shared with Harris too. So this run Williams was carefully guided as well. He was as ready for the Liston fights as anyone though he had not done enough to be rated just yet.

I think the Liston fights were the making of Liston and finally off the back of those disappointments Williams was able to outpoint Bethea, KO Miteff, green Terrell, draw with Machen and outpoint Daniels. I think he landed these fights easy enough. Good match making I would say. But that's as good as it got.

 

May I as you this?
If Williams and Harris met on their respective best days, who would have emerged the winner,and in what fashion?
Thank you for your reply.

 

I understand the best day for Williams could be drawing with Machen. Best on film might be losing against Terrell.

Harris best day must be beating Pastrano. Best on film losing to Patterson.

Baring in mind the best day situation often does not represent an overall representation of who was the better fighter and since the primes of both really don't overlap they proberbly couldn't meet prime for prime in real time.

On paper I think Harris did more with his career with a shorter number of fights. It's obvious that whilst on the surface Williams seemed like a lot more raw talent but needed (and proved) to be a work in progress over a longer time. I've heard he was crazy and that had to be overcome in order to get the best out of him.

Going off best film perhaps Williams deserves to start favorite. Without seeing the drawing with machen night or the beating Pastrano night I think Harris deserves more respect than a draw against the guy who Harold Johnson beat.

Putting the two together I think Harris was better than Billy Daniels, the only good guy Williams actually beat so giving him a punchers chance could be ruled out. Perhaps if we can bottle an exceptional moment for Williams he can win on points. But without any kind of record for knocking out anything better than a shopworn Miteff I can't see a knockout here.

 

I meant Bethea but same difference.

Well, in 57 Williams was just a few months into a comeback after a two year absence from the sport. Harris had been a steady pro for a few years already by that point.