Cleveland Williams

Name their wins which were better than stopping Terrell.

 

Why is stopping in a green Terrell so big? Who was Terrell? He was at best never better than second best in the division and that was for the briefest of times. Williams certainly didnt beat the best version of Terrell who was never the best to begin with.

 

What were some of his best performances? I've only seen his first Liston fight (Williams looked very good offensively in the first round but then had no answers when Liston actually started fighting back) and his fight against Ali, where he was clearly a shell of his former self.

 

London beat Foley, pastrano, erskine
Mildenberger beat machen and Amos Lincoln
Erskine best win #3 rated Willie Pastrano, chuvalo, Cooper.
Richardson best wins Mildenburger and London
Bodell best win Joe Bugner, Manuel Ramos, Billy Daniels
Logan beat Ezzard Charles and Lavorante.
Lavorante knocked out Folley
Rischer beat Henry Cooper
Cooper beat #1, Zorra Foley, mildenburger,Miteff, London, erskine,
Richardson beat Mildenburger, ezzard Charles, Bob Baker, London.
Cleroux beat Miteff, Chuvalo, Roy Harris.

Most of these wins are better scalps than the Daniels and Miteff wins that Cleveland Wiliams has on his resume.

 

His best filmed win was proberbly against Tod Herring who was not a bad fighter.

 

Thanks; will check it out.

 

And Satterfield beat the best version of Williams?

Terrell was green? He had 27 fights under his belt ,a few months later he was rated number 3 ,and for the next year too.

Terrell was the number 3 contender for 2 years ,the number one contender for the following2 years and rated the year after that That's 5 years in the top ten ,4 of them no lower than number 3. He beat
Foster
Chuvalo
Folley
Machen
Lincoln
Zech
Williams
Jones
How many heavyweights of his era have a better resume?

 

Not better than stopping Terrell.

 

Herring was one of two men][both were fighters,] who gave blood to Williams when he got shot.

 

London was a cream puff. Williams would have knocked his block off

 

None of those accomplishments are true of the Terrell that Williams beat. Simple as that. He hadnt done any of that. He hadnt been rated or beaten any of those names you listed (none of whom were world beaters).

 

But perhaps London was good enough to last as long as Williams did against Liston? After all London fared as well against Ali as Williams had..

London had wins over rated guys like Pastrano, Erskine and Foley. Would you back Daniels and Miteff to beat either Foley, Erskine or Pastrano?

London was no world beater but he knocked out Radmacher and did a number on Roger Rischer.

 

But Terrell had already lost three of those first 27 fights. Twice he'd already lost to 15-8 Johnny Gray and trail horse Wayne Bethea outpointed him. Terrell had so obviously not found his level at that point. Until Terrell beat somebody more respectable than Johnny Gray he's no better than guys that beat him. That never happened until AFTER he lost to Williams.

Are you really celebrating the fact that Cleveland Williams best win was equal to Wayne Bethea and Johny Gray?

Miteff and Daniels were Williams best wins.

 

I can't believe you're dismissing Terrell because he was never generally considered to be better than Muhammad Ali.

In his next fight after Williams, just 3 months later, Terrell scored probably the most impressive win of his career, widely outpointing Zora Folley, and then went on to win comfortable victories against Machen, Jones and others. If Williams had really been the kind of nondescript fringe contender you're suggesting, Terrell would have beaten him easily. Instead he squeezed home on a split decision which the Associated Press scored for Williams.

 

I regard Terrell as a fair win. If I'm "dismissing" that version of 24-3 Terrell it is not because he was not better than Ali! It is for two other reasons. #1, beating Terrell at that time was no different than Wayne Bethea beating Terrell. #2, that version of Ernie had not recorded a single notable win up until that time.

if Terrell later became the second best heavyweight in the world (for a time) is matching that version of Ernie, in a close fight, -a guy once called "the human octopus" because he was so awkward- that good?

Henry Cooper beat Folley on points too. Doug Jones knocked him out. So did Aljandro Lavorante. This was before Terrell scored this "landmark win". Later even Brian London outpointed Folley.

Terrell wound up with the WBA strap and some small status only because he was the one guy who could outpoint enough of the old guard like Folley and Machen type guys in back to back fights. Machen and Foley would drop decisions here and there but (apart from Liston) most guys that could beat one of them often would go off and lose his next big fight, so Folley and Machen kind if maintained gate keeper status for a long time. Eventually somebody would beat either Folley or machen or both and continue to win. It had to happen eventually and it wound up being Terrell with his long arms and clutching.

Terrell beat nobody easily, that's why nobody was ever that excited about him. Who did Terrell ever beat easily? Ernie was a big spoiler. World class but a spoiler. He could edge good fighters on points with his grab and jab style. Half decent guys that others knocked out Terrell beat on points. Williams was eventually a good fighter too. Just not a great one.