CMV: I think Usyk beats any version of Ali

WHO has used it as a cop out?

 

A few things:


My example of Tyson psyching out Wlad is extremely relevant to the thread.

Yes, he was past his best then.

However, I can also give you earlier examples.


Your last paragraph is staggering.

It really is.

 

If this is true, then you would have a huge amount of respect for Ali and his resume.

 

I possessed more knowledge at 13, than what you currently do.

 

60-76 Ali beat sluggers, swarmers, and Fancy Dans. Don't take my word for it. Take the word of the great Emmanuel Steward. He said Ali fought everyone, even those who were stylistically bad for him.

 

I painted a full picture.

Even in his prime, his actions were based off of those early losses.


However, we can solely concentrate on his perceived prime:


In his prime, he fought tremendously cautious against David Haye.

In his prime, he barely beat Sam Peter.

In his prime, he thought that he was in the in the octagon, in the UFC, when he fought against Povetkin.


Ali would have done a psyche job on him.

And his incredible speed and his unorthodox style would have been hugely problematic.


The only reason that you’re saying that Wlad would have destroyed him, is due to your emotional dislike of how overrated you believe that he is.

 

At the time i allowed myself, and gloriously so, to ride the wave of current hype.

But if i look as objectively as I can, I just cannot see how Usyk beats Ali, Louis, Tyson, Lewis, Frazier.

I can see him beating Liston, Foreman and Holmes tho.

 

The fighters who would beat/give Usyk the most trouble would be the more comparably sized ATGs of the past.

Usyk’s successes against older, slower, stamina challenged and much less skilled SHWs are not a good correlate for how he would fare against relatively smaller (as compared to todays SHWs) ATGs of yesteryear at their peaks.

Usyk wasn’t so un-hittable early in his career and at peak, he relied on a good measure of his own durability much earlier than peak Ali ever had to. He bore facial marks after several of his CW fights.

With the sublime speed, reflex and mobility that peak Ali displayed, one loses a LOT in effective terms even if they degrade, in sheer physical terms by, say, just 5-10 %.

George Chuvalo (both a 60s and early 70s opponent of Ali) played perfect witness to this fact. After their rematch he said that Ali was clearly somewhat removed from the fighter he used to be.

That just proves how great prime Ali truly was - possessing such an abundance of skill, natural abilities etc, at peak, that he could degrade to an obvious degree but still rule the division (comprehensively - leaving no stone unturned) for a second time around.

I’m reading a profile of Usyk being all things, all at once. That’s not possible and he quite obviously wasn’t and isn’t.

Olek is actually being far more overrated in H2H terms than Ali has been - so it’s ironic to suggest that it’s Ali who is being overly inflated.

I believe Ali would comfortably defeat Usyk over the 15 round route and certainly don’t preclude a possible a later round stoppage in Ali’s favour.

And, I agree with @Dynamicpuncher that Frazier is also a particularly bad match up for Usyk.

Olek clearly doesn’t have Foreman’s power and it just so happened that no one but Foreman badly hurt and obliterated Joe as George did.

 

Great post.

For me, Mike would have been Usyk’s worst stylistic match up.

 

I can give you an example of Haye who tried the same and it didn't work

 

You’ve just compared David Haye to Muhammad Ali.

Think about that for a second.

 

Proving you're an actual P4P fighter does that but I guess such a concept is hard for people on this fourm to understand because size doesn't matter (unless it's the Klitschko brothers then suddenly it matters)

 

By that logic you're comparing Fury to Ali maybe think before you write (hard for you ik)

 

What are you talking about?


David Haye did not have the aura or the confidence that Ali had.

Making a comparison with David Haye is silly.


Me making a comparison with Tyson Fury and Ali works in my favour.

Because Tyson too, didn’t have the aura that Ali had.


Tyson had Wlad psyched out at the pressers.

He had him buying every feint, making him reluctant to throw his hands.

Yet 18 months later, he was happy to have a shootout with AJ.


So: A young Ali would have broken him mentally, and made him extremely cautious with his incredible speed and unorthodox style.

That should be obvious to anybody.

 

Haye tried the same thing didn't work there's a difference between prime Wlad and old Wlad. Prime Wlad wins with Ali not able to do anything besides eat jabs and left hooks all night.