Cocoa Kid rec'd a horrible tribute at hall of fame weekend

I'd say true greatness is 2 not get stopped unless facing extreme gape in something relevant and having at least a few stoppage wins over real good opponents plus d will 2 always fight d best .

How many stoppages over good fighters he had in all of d many fights he fought ? 1 ? lets also check his list of best opponents :
Burley : loss
Ambers : loss
Holman Williams : mixed results
Jimmy Leto (not a great fighter either) : loss

is this a great fighter 4u ? also , most of his fights were against nobodies , just like in almost every other case of inflated numbers like his .


Xamples 2 great fighters ?
McCallum , Sanchez , Toney , Froch

I tried 2b correct and yet not obvious .
I could of course just type Armstrong , WSJ , Langford , Burley and no1 would have disagreed . But i have my doubts regarding their records , especially Burley's & Langford's @ d moment .


Cocoa kid was probably good , but not 1 of d best . His 1st KO loss came @ d age of 26 , remained unavenged and he did not even partially made up 4 it with stoppages of his own . Still good but no need 2 get carried away .

Some1 like Doug Jones usually (almost always) fought bigger men than he was , yet he pulled a KO over Zora Folley and was only KOd by slugging with much heavier/younger/both men . And at least it seems like his fights were 4 real , and not d "i'll win this 1 , u win rematch , let's do it d easy way" type of career .

 

Nobodies is not at all accurate!

Many, many top rated fighters outside the Top 10 were for real. In the Kid's day there were only 8 divisions and 2000 - 3000 fighters where being rate globally!

To think that AT LEAST the TOP 5 of ALL other Boxing Countries were'nt the real deal is a bit naive really. These men were Top Athletes, National Champions (when that meant something) former Olympians, Rated Contenders and/or Fringe Contenders, again when that meant something!

These guys were Very Good & great fighters (small g), the Kid was excellent and by all accounts so was Jimmy Leto!!!

 

Why doesn't Ortiz fit that criteria?

 

where did i ever state that he doesn't ? actually i included him in my top 100

 

When you said this

From my memory , Ortiz' record does not imply true greatness either

 

i reread my post and u r correct , i already revealed my opinion obout him :yep , but i still included him in my p4p top 100 , and i do not rule him out of greatness decisively yet . I just don't think Ortiz' opposition was very formidable , Laguna & Loi (above Ortiz' weight) were good , but still d rest of his opponents weren't as far as i remember . There were other cases of fighters who simply didn't have a particularly strong division , so it's harder 2 measure them correctly . On paper , it seems like d peak of d 135 division was about from McLarnin 2 Ike Williams . I know it's a long duration , but still . Duran didn't have a particularly strong division either , and i read that he cheated in this weight .

 

Thanks Stony,
With Cocoa claiming hometown status from both Hartford and New Haven
I suggest you sift through this,
http://www.newslink.org/ctnews.html

 

So true about Jimmy Leto T. Yes Jimmy Leto twice decisioned Cocoa Kid...
No shame as Leto who is one of our most forgotten fighters also beat Charley Burley, Wesley Ramey, Bat Battalino, Chalky Wright, drew with the great Lou Ambers, all in their primes...I have Leto and Basillio even money
both in their primes...While i was in the service I met the retired Jimmy Leto, and he was one tough looking hombre....Leto, Burley, Cocoa Kid, Holman Williams, Burley, were all great tough fighters competing in a VERY
competitive age of Welterweights, and Cocoa Kid was in the midst of these top fighters...

 

One of those decisions was a bad one. Leto was managed by Lou Viscusi, who was shady, and who tried to bribe Cocoa Kid to throw the fight. Cocoa Kid refused, and lost a highly questionable decision.

Viscusi was suspended.

 

I yield to you S. My contention is that Leto was not a fighter you should be ashamed to lose to...Was a combo of Sammy Angott and Carmen Basillio...Tough dude in his prime...

 

Funny both Burt and Thistle getting caught up again in
“The record book sez W for this fighter”
When there’s so much going on behind the scenes in this shady racket.

 

Slakka we don't know and can't possibly know every detail about all fighters...

we, I, am just commenting about basic knowledge of the Kid, from all accounts he was/is a pretty darn good fighter, even if he did get some payed W's, it's not that we're being blindly ignorant, it's merely general "percieved" knowledge thats all.

I'm sure Burt has got even more insight than that, as this was his Era, he was there and he knew some inside people too.

I don't doubt either what you know isn't true,
but it still doesn't take away from Cocoa Kid, jimmy leto or any other TOP fighter. Are we to believe Marshall isn't a great because he won some and lost some MOB fights, NO, Why? - because he was pretty dam good too, thats why!!!

 

S, I don't quite understand where your coming from. ? Because Leto was managed By Lou Viscusi and won 2 decisions over Kid Cocoa, and as Stoney suggests one was not on the "level", I am naive in concluding that Jimmy Leto was not one hell of a tough fighter ? You are dead wrong on my being "getting "caught up", as you imply about the Fighter Jimmy Leto as somehow winning his fights because he was "mobbed up ". For your info S, Lou Viscusi was also the manager and guru of the great Willie Pep also...And Ike Williams mgrs were also mobbed up, and some of his fights were also "tainted". i am not gullible and I recall the name of Jimmy Leto growing up with the accurate reputation of being a helluva fighter in a helluva tough era...Cheers.
P.S. Give Leto his due as he also beat Charley Burley,Wesley Ramey, Frankie Klick, Bat Battalino, drew with a prime Lou Ambers, and had 135 fights in his career, fighting all the toughies, black and white...

 

Don't leave Pete Riley out of that nutmeg state bunch Burt. He managed Jack Delaney.