Colin Hart's top 5 all time welterweights.

Foxy 01 · May 7, 2015

Unforgiven said: ↑

It earned Jones a heavyweight ranking.
I'm not sure how you define "established".
For me, it means Duran had proven himself against some welterweights and beaten one of the world's best welters quite easily, easier than the world champion had in fact.

Never mind heavyweight, do you think Roy Jones ever established himself at 168 ?
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Well here is a good place to start.

adjective

Having existed or done something for a long time and therefore recognized and generally accepted.
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On that definition I would dare to say that neither Jones, or Duran were established in The Heavyweight, or Welterweight ( at the time he fought Leonard ) divisions respectively.

Again by that definition I would say that Jones's 6 fights in the 168 division over a period of just less than 2 years does NOT make him established as a S / Middle. He only beat 1 worthy opponent in that division, unless you count the 16 fight relative novice Brannon as someone special.

mcvey · May 7, 2015

Foxy 01 said: ↑

mcvey said: ↑

Dear dear, you have got your panties twisted today haven't you?

Wtf has this got to do with Tommy being severely weight drained when he fought Leonard? As evidenced by him NEVER fighting at Welter again.

I didn't imply it did. I simply asked the question.

See above.

Whoopee do. Are you claiming Leonard is the only fighter to beat reigning champions and ATG's?

I'm not saying he wasn't, just not 2nd that's for sure.

Billions of people believe in some kind of god. Does that mean I have to be stupid enough to do so?

That merely proves you have more faith in an American magazine rating American fighters than I do.

Alternatively perhaps you need to re-evaluate your position, and faith in Ring magazine.

I have no idea what these links were meant to reveal, but they haven't, so I guess they are not that important.

T
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I'm in no way annoyed or upset by your post, why should I be?

By your standards you were the very embodiment of courtesy and politeness.

I just found the remarks about Benitez to be totally irrelevant.
The Ring is only one of many magazines trade papers that have Leonard very high in an atg welter list. So for you to pronounce that to place him 2 nd is "idiocy, " is bizarre.

As to Leonard, his 3 best scalps at welterweight rank very favourably with other champs at 147 champions.

Whose are better?

Manny Steward had to my knowledge, never said Hearns was weight drained when he fought Leonard,if I'm correct that is just your own interpretation.

Leonard went into the fight with a bruised left eye caused by an elbow in sparring .

You seem intent on minimising Leonard's wins for some reason. I don't buy it.
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Foxy 01 · May 8, 2015

mcvey said: ↑

Foxy 01 said: ↑

I'm in no way annoyed or upset by you post, why should I be?

By your standards you were the very embodiment of courtesy and politeness.

I just found the remarks about Benitez to be totally irrelevant.
The Ring is only one of many magazines trade papers that have Leonard very high in an atg welter list. So for you to pronounce that to place him 2 nd is "idiocy, " is bizarre.

As to Leonard, his 3 best scalps at welterweight rank very favourably with other champs at 147 champions.

Whose are better?

Manny Steward had to my knowledge, never said Hearns was weight drained when he fought Leonard,if I'm correct that is just your own interpretation.

Leonard went into the fight with a bruised left eye caused by an elbow in sparring .

You seem intent on minimising Leonard's wins for some reason. I don't buy it.
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Lets get one thing straight. I am not trying to minimise Leonards WINS at 147, rather his status as high as #2 all time. I would certainly give more credit to Hank Armstrong for fighting full blown Welters when little more than a Lightweight himself, win, lose , or draw.

It is the #2 I have a problem with, not him being ranked highly per se.

I think you will find that Manny Steward did in fact admit that it was a mistake to let Tommy fight SRL at 147, as he had been having trouble making the weight for a while previously. Though I will leave that to you to check out with your far superior collection of reference material than I have. I just seem to remember reading it, perhaps it was in a Duran bio.

If I were coming from your position I would also be desperate to solely count Leonard's 3 best wins ( particularly in title fights ) at 147, because Finch, Bonds, and Green simply aren't worth mentioning. His overall Welter career doesn't hold a candle to Napoles for starters.
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LouisA · May 9, 2015

Ra's Al-Ghul said: ↑

Hearns had in these days a very high frequently fighting rhytm, due to he usually stopped the opponents early (like Wladimir Klitschko till the first Byrd fight), but his career was rather short and he was unexperienced particular in championship rounds, while he was comfortable leading vs. Leonard (& robbed in the rematch).

That it was only a split decision was riddiculous, as Mosley humilated de la Hoya (in his first fight at Welterweight, after moving up two weight divisions) and dominated about 10 rounds. I think he was robbed in the second Forrest bout (had him winning 8 rounds at least), just as vs. Cotto (had it 116 - 113 for "Sugar Shane", like the most viewer). Margarito was huge favourite and his style + strong physique didn't suit him (he is the only one who knocked him out, while who was only once knocked down ten years before, after dominating every single minute) and Wright wasn't at Welterweight (who was just too big, but the revenge match was closer/ could be scored as draw). Also is he the only one who dominated Collazo, who was robbed against Hatton and Berto.

I don't rate Mayweathers win over Hatton that big, because who was smaller (a light-welterweight), very limited/ not at his level (an anti-boxer) and has a padded record. While the one over Cotto was at Light-Middleweight too (and he didn't impress that much here/ wasn't more clear than Trout it did after).
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It was not Mosley's first fight as a welterweight, it was his third.

Unforgiven · May 9, 2015

Foxy 01 said: ↑

Well here is a good place to start.

adjective

On that definition I would dare to say that neither Jones, or Duran were established in The Heavyweight, or Welterweight ( at the time he fought Leonard ) divisions respectively.

Again by that definition I would say that Jones's 6 fights in the 168 division over a period of just less than 2 years does NOT make him established as a S / Middle. He only beat 1 worthy opponent in that division, unless you count the 16 fight relative novice Brannon as someone special.
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Fair enough. :good

mcvey · May 9, 2015

Foxy 01 said: ↑

mcvey said: ↑

Lets get one thing straight. I am not trying to minimise Leonards WINS at 147, rather his status as high as #2 all time. I would certainly give more credit to Hank Armstrong for fighting full blown Welters when little more than a Lightweight himself, win, lose , or draw.

It is the #2 I have a problem with, not him being ranked highly per se.

I think you will find that Manny Steward did in fact admit that it was a mistake to let Tommy fight SRL at 147, as he had been having trouble making the weight for a while previously. Though I will leave that to you to check out with your far superior collection of reference material than I have. I just seem to remember reading it, perhaps it was in a Duran bio.

If I were coming from your position I would also be desperate to solely count Leonard's 3 best wins ( particularly in title fights ) at 147, because Finch, Bonds, and Green simply aren't worth mentioning. His overall Welter career doesn't hold a candle to Napoles for starters.
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I can see why some might put Armstrong above Leonard ,Napoles too,though I think Leonard beats Napoles. But I don't think either's top 3 wins at 147 are better than Ray's .
McLarnin has a comparable trio of scalps but very few others have.

I'm also taking into account head to head ,where I see only Robinson as favourite to beat Leonard.
If you want to be swayed
by body of work and longevity thats as legitimate as my stance ,but I wouldn't name it idiocy to take it.

That was what prompted me to respond, the word idiocy.
Why so combative all the time?

You're going for the jugular in nearly every post you make.:think
Have a Cruz Campo and chill.
I get enough verbal sparring with Mendozy.
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Foxy 01 · May 9, 2015

mcvey said: ↑

Foxy 01 said: ↑

I can see why some might put Armstrong above Leonard ,Napoles too,though I think Leonard beats Napoles. But I don't think either's top 3 wins at 147 are better than Ray's .
McLarnin has a comparable trio of scalps but very few others.

I'm also taking into account head to head ,where I see only Robinson as favourite to beat Leonard.
If you want to be swayed
by body of work and longevity thats as legitimate as my stance ,but I wouldn't name it idiocy to take it.

That was what prompted me to respond, the word idiocy.
Why so combative all the time?

You're going for the jugular in nearly every post you make.:think
Have a Cruz Campo and chill.
I get enough verbal sparring with Mendozy.
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I'm certainly no more combative than you in every post, so that is a bit of a " pot meet kettle " example.

I can accept that Leonard might well beat most Welters in h2h matches, but I won't discount his overall resume at the weight when ranking him, particularly when the circumstances of 2 of those 3 big wins are taken into account.

As for Cruz Campo, are you kidding me? It's polish, Estrella Classica is far superior.
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mcvey · May 9, 2015

Foxy 01 said: ↑

mcvey said: ↑

I'm certainly no more combative than you in every post, so that is a bit of a " pot meet kettle " example.

I can accept that Leonard might well beat most Welters in h2h matches, but I won't discount his overall resume at the weight when ranking him, particularly when the circumstances of 2 of those 3 big wins are taken into account.

As for Cruz Campo, are you kidding me? It's polish, Estrella Classica is far superior.
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I drank Campo in Seville and liked it. You can get Estrella here but I haven't tried it yet, might have one Sunday.
I have a hangover from celebrating yesterday so I didn't drink today as I " overtrained" Friday.
I'm combative with Mongoose and Mendozy, two grade A c*nts rarely anyone else , but you are straight into abuse mode with most posters, and you really don't need to be ,as your arguments are usually very well put together ,[once you sift through the abuse].
I'll let you know about the Estrella:good
.
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Foxy 01 · May 10, 2015

mcvey said: ↑

Foxy 01 said: ↑

I drank Campo in Seville and liked it. You can get Estrella here but I haven't tried it yet, might have one Sunday.
I have a hangover from celebrating yesterday so I didn't drink today as I " overtrained" Friday.
I'm combative with Mongoose and Mendozy, two grade A c*nts rarely anyone else , but you are straight into abuse mode with most posters, and you really don't need to be ,as your arguments are usually very well put together ,[once you sift through the abuse].
I'll let you know about the Estrella:good
.
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Please try it. San Miguel on draught is also quite good. If you are in Seville they will probably have their own Andalucian brewed beer, which judging by the amount the locals partake will give you a clue.

As you probably know Estrella translates to star, so for for instance Estrella Damm is made up north, but Classica is a different beer all together and brewed in Valencia region I think.

A bit of research ( a small libation ) and you will be cool with it.
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mcvey · May 11, 2015

Foxy 01 said: ↑

mcvey said: ↑

Please try it. San Miguel on draught is also quite good. If you are in Seville they will probably have their own Andalucian brewed beer, which judging by the amount the locals partake will give you a clue.

As you probably know Estrella translates to star, so for for instance Estrella Damm is made up north, but Classica is a different beer all together and brewed in Valencia region I think.

A bit of research ( a small libation ) and you will be cool with it.
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Will do!:good
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Goyourownway · May 14, 2015

Foxy 01 said: ↑

BULLSH IT.

After an initial adjustment he won thirty in a row, and scored knockout victories over future Featherweight Champion Ernesto Marcel and former Super Featherweight Champion Hiroshi Kobayashi, culminating in his first title bout in June 1972,

Durán followed up on his title winning performance with several non-title matches. Later that year, in another non-title bout, he lost a ten round decision to Esteban De Jesús. Durán got back on track with successful title defenses against Jimmy Robertson, Hector Thompson and future Lightweight Champion Guts Ishimatsu. In 1974, Durán avenged his loss to De Jesus with a brutal eleventh round knock out

Overall, Durán made twelve successful defenses of his title (eleven coming by knock out) and amassed a record of 62-1,

So YOU do the math. 30 at Lightweight and under including Buchanan, 12 title defences, PLUS non title fights at Lightweight. 8 at Welter before fighting Leonard.

When I went to school that was 50 ( plus the previously mentioned non title Lightweight fights ) so where the f&&k do you get he had more Light WELTER fights, than Lightweight, seeing as he arrived in Canada in June 1980 with a record of 72 - 1?
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Settle down, Poxy. You're far too old to be spazzing out on internet forums at this stage in your life.

The stats are there on boxrec to view. Duran had more fights above the lightweight limit in the 1970's than he had at the weight. It's as simple as that.

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