Compare Rocky Marciano and Jack Dempsey?

Strength Maybe a bit more leverage strength for Marciano, being more bottom heavy. Not sure about upper-body strength.


Speed Dempsey, in terms of physical movement and also quick out the gate; but sometimes Marciano would get to guys early, too.


Toughness Maybe Marciano, tough call.

Endurance Marciano, but 1919-1923 Dempsey had considerable endurance.

Skill Toss-up. I think Marciano's defense was a shade better, but Dempsey was better at getting in quickly and more versatile inside.

Opposition Marciano, though perhaps Dempsey's opposition was more varied. One could reasonably argue for Dempsey's opponents.

Title reign Similar in positive accomplishments. Negatively, we may have liked to see Marciano fight Henry, Baker or Valdez, but this pales beside Dempsey not meeting Wills; then again, if Dempsey and Wills had fought in the 1950's a match may well have come off.

Overall legacy Ring legacy arguable either way. Dempsey the greatest live gate attraction in North American sports history.


Who you prefer/rank higher and why? I tend to rank Marciano just a bit over Dempsey, but I can't really say I know that's right. "Why"?See next question.

15 rounds, both at their peak, who wins? Could go either way, Iif I had to bet I'd go with Marciano, but it's hard to favor either guy.
Dempsey did have a tendency to eat a right hand -- GB Smith I, Brennan II, Carpentier, Firpo, Tunney I. I think that's not so good to bring into the ring vs Marciano. At the same time, if Dempsey was able to get inside against Rocky, it softens Rocky's power perhaps a bit more than Dempsey's, and Jack probably was a bit more fluent inside. So maybe attrition goes Jack's way? Then again, I think Rocky had a bit more endurance to be attrited. So it's really a hard fight to call.

 

I can see where you are coming from and at least you break down why it is you place Liston so highly. Thank you for that, and also for not taking the kind of tone some people do. However, As fine a heavyweight as Liston was, compared to other all time greats he did not qite pay his dues at championship level. Sure he came up against a special chalenger in clay but in order to place him so highly you have to give Sonny a pass on a lot of things that are not afforded to any other champion when assesing greatness.

Against Foreman Sonny has no size advantage and is against an elite fighter who will match him punch for punch. Foreman is no Cleveland williams. When did Liston come out on top against an elite fighter in the trenches? Foreman did against Ron Lyle. To be a great fighter you have to win great fights not just blow outs.

Sure Liston was a better boxer than Foreman but it wasnt the boxing that beat Frazier. What beat Frazier was the inch of timing he had lost against Ali in TFOTC which meant Joe could no longer lead from range, going from a fighter who could time Ali at a distance to having to "feel his way inside" against Ron Stander is the difference between landing first or not against a man like Foreman. A 1969 version of Joe Frazier landing from outside and landing first against the very best version of either Foreman or Liston is a whole different matter than what happened in Jamaica. Frazier stood toe to toe with big bulls like Bonavena and Chuvalo so the size of Liston is a zero factor to Frazier. Liston is expected to time Fraziers rolling, weaving style and exchange with a fearless elite puncher at world class. This from a man who quit when he didnt like Ali hitting on him? I cant pass Liston on this either.

Ok Liston has a punchers chance against Lennox. If Bruno can out box Lewis for several rounds lets say Liston does too but what happens when Lewis hangs tough like he did against Bruno and finds a footing to get back into the fight? Do we assume Liston walks through it and fires back like he did against the far inferior big cat Williams or the 180 pound marty marshal and burt whitehurst when they hurt him? Or do we assume that whaterver recouprative powers he produced against the inferior Williams (who never was able to conect with his best power against elite fighters) and feeble marshall and whitehurst would allow Liston to walk through the man who stood Grant, Golota, Rahman, Tyson and Briggs on their heads? I cant give Liston that kind of pass can you?

For all the versatility Liston showed against canonn fodder and fair contender alike I dont think necessarily translates to paying off against a Marciano or a Dempsey. Neither Jack or Rocky were fair contenders. They were great fighters! Sure Patterson WAS a great fighter but thats one great guy. Ingo Johansson beat the same great guy first time around, he might not have turned the trick a second time but so what! he beat the same guy too. One guy. Its just not enough to base a resume when comparing all time greats IMO.

 

Fantastic read!

I really like your Frazier comments. I understand that many heavyweight greats have much better resumes than Liston and his two quits really kill him.

However, when I look at his fighting style and picture him in with the other greats I have ranked below him, I see him coming out on top because he was so skilled and powerful. I would say if you exchanged Liston with Lyle he finishes Foreman. Foreman should not have had to go life and death with Lyle. Lyle was good but it was Foreman's own lack of skill was his reason for that tough time with Lyle and the reason he was "roped" in Zaire. His power was his greatest assest. Aside from that his skills very basic. Maybe below basic for his greatness.

Again, very impressive post. I am learning more from them than finding something to argue. I have posted my oppinions on the other fighters we discussed and they remain but honestly, I don't want to restatement my points and take away from your great response.

Much respect.

 

TheRe have been many powerful hwts but Foreman had other attributes that made him just not only a power hitter. Tremendous determination, killer instinct, iron chin, great ability to cut the ring off, tremendous jab and he had a great physical presence in the ring.....a true force of nature in his prime. So again he was not just a power puncher.

Also his bout with Lyle was his first in a year and a half. This was a hugely dangerous opponent for him to face. Lyle could fight and he had ko power in both fists especially his right. Lyle while in prison did thousands of pushups a day and used the concrete walls of his cell to build punching power.

 

You need to remember that Listons SD loss to Marshall came early in his career and he koed Marty handily in the return bout.

Liston beat Whitehurst by a wide decision. Had it been a longer bout Liston would have scored a ko since Whitehurst was badly hurt as the final bell rang.

You need to look at prime Liston who destroyed the hwt field possibly like no other beating Folley, Harris, Williams, Valdez, Machen, And Dejohn....all by brutal ko except for Machen who held on for dear life in order to last the distance. This was prime Liston....a real terror in the ring.

 

very good comment, but foreman would have destroyed any version of frazier, does not matter 69.70.71.... frazier was made in order of foreman, in the end of the day he was a pressure fighter and he would trade with foreman, trading blows with a truck is not a good plan when you are just a jeep.. plus frazier 73 was bigger and heavier than frazier 69-71 that weighed barely 205-207 pounds. i think that frazier would have beaten liston by late ko... he was no floyd patterson, liston was not george foreman, not physically and not stylistically. and not as tough.

 

Fraziers only chance beating prime Liston would be in his prime. Fraziers prime would be the 69-71 time period...his absolute prime being the night he fought Ali in 71. He had speed and ko power in that hook...at the very top of his game. That Frazier had the best chance. It would have been one hell of a fight. A heavier Frazier post 73 was not prime Frazier and he would not have beaten prime Liston.

 

Sometimes there are exceptions to the rule. Foreman never got to be the champion he could have been in either carnation he presented us. Are we to assess him as the champ he was or the champ he could have been? Perhaps even the best version of Frazier cant beat the Foreman George COULD have been but is it even fair to guess what fighter George could have been? At least we know how good Frazier could be. That is tangible. George won the title as a work in progress.

Ok lets look at the champ Foreman WAS first time around. He had unbelievable accuracy, strength and absolute beleif in himself but he was as green as the grass. To think he did what he did to Frazier and Norton without fulfilling his potential is frightening but the fact is Dick Sadler only took a gamble against Frazier because George was young enough to come again ...but it paid off.

Nobody knows a champion better than the manager of a challenger. Sadler knew George was a future champion but he also saw Frazier had lost something and was already on borrowed time, he did not want anyone else getting there first. Once Foreman got in there he was able to execute his plan of letting go the right hand as soon as Frazier dipped his head down. Joes head would pop up in time for it to land but 2 or 3 years earlier Fraziers feet and vision would have prevented George to time him so easily.

If you are giving away weight against a big puncher and you are the pressure fighter you must land first. You have to use your best punch early but Frazier could no longer land at range like he could. He went from timing the fast as lighning Ali at a distance to having to feel his way in like a blind man against stander.

Earlier other fighters had met Joe head on and he always landed first. Frazier was sharp. And if you think young Geoge did not get beaten to the draw watch his fight just 8 months earlier against Ted Gullick. Imagine Joe Frazier of TFOTC vintage landing the punches Ted Gullick swatted Foreman with? then imagine you are Dick sadler watching Frazier v Stander. Yes, Sadler totaly knew what he was doing.

Frazier might have been but a jeep to Foremans truck but I have seen many a little tug boat leading bigger battle ships.

 

many thanks.:good

 

With all due respect Frazier fought George twice and never for a moment was he in a position to beat Foreman. foreman hit so hard....frightening so and Frazier fought right in george's power zone. I can't see a scenario where Frazier can win. It's a physical mismatch and Fraziers style does not allow him to overcome it.

 

I'm skipping to the fight... prime vs. prime, 15 rounds.

Dempsey is 1/2" - 3" taller depending on the source. He had about a 4" - 5" reach advantage. Their weight was close.

IMHO, Rocky was stronger, punched harder, was better conditioned, had a better chin, and would win.

 

As per those that watched both men live from ringside......you cannot compare Marciano to Dempsey except in terms of punching power. Dempsey was the far greater fighter.

 

both times they fought was after TFOTC. That fight must have effected his eyesight and timing. It left Frazier needing to walk through punches to win and you cant do that with Foreman. At his best Frazier always met a fighter with his own shot first. Its a big difference. He was not walking through shots before that point.

 

He just did not have the style to beat Foreman. Joes eyesight was poor way before he fought Ali.

 

Here's the undeniable deal ... Rocky fought the best fighters of his era and Dempsey did not ... Even faded, Charles, Walcott and Moore were terrific fighters and better than anyone Dempsey fought as champion ... the fact is the two best fighters Dempsey fought were Sharkey and Tunney ... it says a ton about Dempsey and what could have been that he performed as well against both as he did past his own prime ..

That aside , if I just had to bet my life I think Rocky would have caught him and taken him out ..