Comparing boxing best swarming heavyweights from Dempsey to Tyson

I think Marciano and Dempsey should be even as far as heart goes. Other than that, I pretty much agree.

 

I left Frazier out by mistake, I simply meant to say I think they should all be rated even in the heart department. Frazier may have been out of shape for some fights, Dempsey may have taken too many long lay offs, but any of them would have rather died than give up in the ring, and that's what matters most to me.

 

You think a ripped 6'1 187lbs guy is physically equally matched with a ripped 5'11 216lbs guy?

 

The trouble with this excercise is that it is totally personal and subjective. Why is Dempsey way ahead of Frazier in offense? Frazier was able to hit Ali often in 1971. Dempsey did not do as well not only with Tunney, but also with Gibbons. Why is Marciano, with the best knockout record against Hall-of-Famers, champions, rated fighters, and general opposition (88% to Dempsey's 63%) a less powerful puncher?

Also, some factors might simply overwhelm others. It is sort of like comparing the New England Patriots to another team and giving the other team an edge at tight end and then using that to cancel out the quarterbacks. Sorry. It just doesn't work that way.

 

There is a reason that there are weight classes, not height classes.

Height can be an advantage but it's limited and depends on the way you use it. Spinks at 6'3 had plenty of trouble with 5'7 Qawi, because what Qawi gave up in height and reach, he made up for in physical strength.


By the way, Tyson was not 5'9 or 5'10. With HBO they measured him on camera and he was 5'11 or 5'11 1/2. This picture is not a photoshopped thing: they showed it on television.

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So Dempsey has about two inches on him, hardly enough to make up for thirty pounds of muscle that Tyson has on him.
Just look:

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Good work.

Against a swarmer, I rate Tyson the highest of the four on the strength of greater power, speed, assortment of effective punches with both hands, combination prowess, countering ability, chin and defense. All wonderful tools in a shoot-out.

Dempsey is a close second, scoring just a bit lower on power, speed, chin. Just as a sample regarding chin, I cannot ignore that Firpo shocked Dempsey to the canvas in the very first stanzas, whereas Thomas' right, Tucker's uppercut and Bruno's lefts and huge rabbit punches simply elicited a disdainful snort from Tyson. And with respect to power and speed, Dempsey's destruction of Willard is for the ages, yet was hardly repeated against twiggy yet feisty Carpentier or the technical Gibbons. On the other hand, Berbick's drunken dance was followed by crushing victories over Thomas, Biggs, Tubbs, Holmes, Spinks, Bruno and Williams. Greater mayhem over bigger men.

Frazier's face-first approach was potentially disastrous against a truly powerful hitter, yet his indomitable spirit, durability and undeniable power in that extraordinary left hook and crushing right to the body would allow him to seize victory against many Quarry-like fighters.

Marciano never ceased to seek victory. He hit well with both hands and had great killer instinct. His 49-0 is a tribute to a man who truly felt like a champion at heart. But a 38-year-old fighter, however great, dropped him early and truly stung him late. Besides, his punches were comparatively slow and, contrary to the legends I read as a kid, one was not usually all it would take.

Against a boxer, I rate Frazier first, Tyson second, Dempsey third and Marciano fourth. It was amazing to see how at FOTC, when Ali first tried to dance away, Frazier hopped along right with him, never missing a beat and immediately pinned him against the ropes. Not even a boxer as fast and tall as Ali could escape that brutal body attack nor those killer swinging hooks to the head. Frazier was there for 15 rounds, with the kitchen sink to boot.

 

A. Who was ever able to stop or negate Frazier's offense. Foreman just blew him away. Ellis, Quarry, Machen and the others all ended up eating that left hook. Dempsey went to a slow draw with Miske in 1918. Gibbons to some extent, and Tunney to a great extent, also checkmated his offense.

B. Marciano fought to 32, the same age as Dempsey and Frazier (not counting the one comeback draw). Dempsey and Frazier just started slipping at a younger age.

C. Marciano's record is no more padded than Dempsey's. Both fought some mediocre opponents on the way up, and that is irrelevant in the case of either man in my opinion as both actually performed better against better opposition once they hit their strides. In his last 14 fights, six against Hall-of-Famers, seven against champions or championship claimants, and 13 against men who were or would be rated, most in the top 2-3 positions, Marciano won 14 with 13 knockouts.

4. I would dispute that Dempsey was clearly the better early puncher or that Marciano won generally by attrition. Dempsey ko'd 43 of 81 opponents in 4 rounds or less--53%. Marciano ko'd 28 of 49 opponents in 4 rounds or less--57%. Dempsey carried power into the later rounds, but Marciano clearly was more outstanding in this respect.