I decided to do a new study........observing listons and dempseys opponents on film and compare their styles/skills to see what I find to determine which set are better. unfortunetly some of dempseys opponents arnt on film Note I am watching all of these opponents on film right around the time they fought liston and dempsey, so i wont be observing the 34 year old folley who fought alot. Zora Folley- Excellent Boxing skills with textbook fundaments. fast long left jab. Very modernized style, If he walked into the gym today with his style you wouldnt realize he fought in the 1960s. Appears to be a dangerous contender in any era. Eddie Machen- Much of the same with folley, except I thought that Machen's fundamentals and defense were even better than Folley. Folley had the better jab. Machens boxing funadementals, counterpunching skills and stance were incredibly modern. High Gaurd, great blocking techniques, and fluid movement. nothing like a 1920s style. dangerous contender in any era. Cleveland Williams- A ferocious Killer, few possess the intimidating abilities of cleveland Williams. A 6'3 215lb 81" reach mountain of ripped muscle, unlike the farmer giants of the 1920s(firpo, morris, and willard) who looked as if they trained on beer, bacon, and southern grease with their soft flabby bodies. Williams was huge for his day and intimidating, but he had the skill to back it up. For his size, he had incredibly fast handspeed, as can be seen on film with his tripling left hooks and fast barrage of punches. Williams was a lethal puncher one of the best ever, when he hit you you dropped like you been shot. He had a killer left hook that was his best puncher, a david tua like bomb. He also had a long powerful telephone pole jab. He was as tough as they come, absorbing punishment like few ive seen and always getting back up to his feet. Although his technique was sloppy, He had good fundamentals and upperbody movement for a big man and carries a high gaurd unless on the attack, a modernized big man in every defintion. A dangerous contender in any era. Floyd Patterson- All time Great. What else is to say about this man? He had the rarest combination of handspeed/boxing skill/power I have ever seen in a fighter. Whats often lost about him is how good his boxing skills were. His defense/technique/fundamentals and overall skill was absolutley mastered. Incredibly modernized similiar to tyson. Patterson really made an art out of that Peek A Boo, and he was so versatile with it. One of the most skilled boxers. Nino Valdez- Valdez was past his prime when he fought liston, but i was able to gather some film of Valdez in 1958 right around the time he tangled with Sonny, and he defintley was not shot. Valdez reflexes had slowed, but he was still a big hulking 6'3 215lb fighter with One of the best jabs I have seen for a big man in the heavyweight division. His boxing skills for a big man were above average and though he lacked athletism, his boxing funadaments were defintley modernized. His best asset outside of his jab was his power, tremendously heavy hands with knockout power in both hands, and he had aggresion and intimidation when he sensed his oponent was hurt. a peak valdez was a dangerous contender in any era, but this version of valdez was still dangerous with his size, power, jab in some eras. even at 34, he appeard to be in better physical shape than some of those big men dempsey fought by looking at their soft blubbery southern greasy food bodies. So far I Have been extremeley impressed with listons wins when you take into account of dominating his victories was over these guys.....his accomplishments are alot better than people think. part 2 coming out next......... Next film Reports Coming out: Johhny summerlin(waiting on the film), Mike Dejohn, Wayne Bethea, Roy Harris Then After I will be reviewing dempseys opponents: Tommy Gibbons, Jess Willard, Luis angel Firpo, Jack Sharkey, Bill Brennan, georges Carpentier, Battling Levinskey, stay tuned..........
Will do! There is film of Liston vs Whitehurst, and Liston vs a few others. Film on some of Dempsey's better opponents such as Miske and Fulton are very rare / do not exsit.
Cool. Do you have Levinsky vs Carpentier for the lt. Heavyweight title? What about Luis Firpo going 12 rounds with big puncher WIlls? What about Fred Fulton knocking out Sam Langford in 1917? And then watch that next to Jack Dempsey taking out Fulton in 18 seconds the following year. What about Billy Miske? I'd love to see the fights of Miske vs. Brennan, it will be interesting to see how they fought against each other and then how Dempsey was able to take them off their game plan. Seriously, my man, If you are fortunate enough to have Johnson V. Willard watch how Johnson hits him with EVERY DAMN PUNCH IN THE BOOK and Willard rarely flinches. Johnson was no soft puncher...Neither was Gunboat Smith. If that fight is found, I will pay you! Also count how many times the WIllard uppercut lands on Johnson, you might be a little shocked. Willard had a good uppercut. Though, you would never know that from watching the first round of the Dempsey fight, as most people only have. Oh and if you see Moran v. Willard, watch when the Mary Ann lands flush on Willards chin. now moran was no master fighter, but he had a naturally strong right hand. and it landed flush and Willard again, does not blink. After watching both Johnson v. Willard and Willard v. Moran, you will have to admit that what Dempsey did to Willard justifyably made waves with the 1919 fight crowd. Willard could take a punch.
the film I have of Liston is Bethea Whitehurst II Williams I and II Roy Harris Eddie Machen Patterson I and II Ali I and II Bill McMurray Henry Clark Leotis Martin and Chuck Wepner on a hand held camera with no sound and you can't really see jack.
Q, you should watch this kid called Clay, he was at least as good as Folley and Machen if i read your descriptions and wouldn't know about them.
I would observe that this is an inherently unequal contest due to the huge disparity in the camera technology.
The guy he spar with was Jamacia Kid, who was black. Bill Tate was white. I useing WAS, because he is decease. So at this point, perhaps he is bones lol.
no. I respectfully disagree. Tate was african american. He also sparred with George Godfrey, also African American and huge, and by all accounts, did damage to both of them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckGTEYKggww Dempsey is incredibly agile, that is some of my favorite footage of Dempsey. Tate also fought for the Black heavyweight title and drew with Wills.
Also notice when they got to Tate, they said he was nearly the size of Willard. But when they got to Jamacia Kid, they said Dempsey added a "Touch" of color. the films of that era would not mention a black guy, with out some color joke or flat out mention of it.(Siki McTige comes to mind)
No offense but Tate was black. He is profiled, along with his picture, in the Black Dynamite section of the Cyberboxing Zone.
Feb 28, 1920, in an article where Dempsey tells about his parents and his life as a kid: I have observed that throughout our talks ... Jack Dempsey, the pugilist, never used the word "n*****," and that was not because Bill Tate, his colored sparring partner, was within earshot, because Bill was not invariably around.
