Comparing Jeffries and Dempsey in accomplishment

I dont really have a list as such, so everything changes whenever i sit down and actually reply with a top 10 listing. I do think that all three of the above men are one of about 12 or so fighters, who i think can be legitimately ranked as number one.

Lists depend on what you use as a ranking criteria (ie solely accomplishments, head to head, etc). When ranking all time great fighters, I try to assume that if they had a good chin in their own era, they have a good chin now, ie eras are roughly even. A big puncher today, was a big puncher in 1900 and vice versa. I also tend to give a lot more value to performances when well past their best, since i believe that when any ATGs meet each other, they will be facing something they probably never did in their prime. For example, Past Prime showed just what an amazing improviser he was and how virtually unbreakable his chin was. This imporoved my opinion of pre exile Ali massively and is one of the main reasons why i think he was the best ever, even though i dont think post exile Ali lays a glove on the pre exile version. The other thing i usually i do is virtually assume all official results are correct. There will always be debates, but the official result is the object. And when it is wrong, the better fighter will nearly always find a way to reverse it. Therefore, i consider the Flynn fight a KO, the Hart fight a loss etc.

Dempsey is one fighter i find extremely hard to rate. Many rate him so highly, and sometimes i do, but i do find his resume a little hollow. In reality, he beat Willard, who was an inactive champion (and i dont really care that he was so big, as most of his contemporaries thought) and from there, he beat some good contenders before he was outclassed by Tunney. I generally rate him in the lower half of the top 10, but i can see justification for dropping him even further down and have on occassions done this myself. i think he rates about 10th at the moment.

Johnson is another that i find hard to rank. I am not sure why but i think he looks more impressive and intimidating that any other fighter i have seen. And his longevity is simply amazing. Not just before the Willard fight, but also after it. He is a hell of a lot better than most people realise and i think I rate him about 5th at the moment. I must admit, his early KO loss to Choynki is what really puzzles me the most, and i personally have doubts about its authenticity - moreso than any of JOhnson's other fights, (call it a hunch as i have never seen anything written about it). Still, as i said earlier i have to judge him on this loss as well as his others, and i think that this is a fair bit closer to Johnsons prime than most others think. I rank JOhnson at about 5 currently but have had him higher in the past.

I usually rank Jeffries somewhere between 2 and 5, depending on a number of things but would currently see him at about 3rd.

For the record, and just because i have thought about it a bit, as of right this second, i would spit out the following list.

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Jeffries
4. Marciano
5. Johnson
6. Sullivan
7. Foreman
8. Tyson
9. Holmes
10. Lewis
11. Liston
12. Dempsey
13. Frazier
14. Tunney
15. Corbett

 

I have no evidence of a choynski fix, and have never seen it suggested anything but on the level. I also have heard the story about Johnson learning plenty from Choynski in the jail cell. Still, it just doesnt seem right to me, but this is all hunch and nothing else. I rate Johnson on the assumption that the Choynski fight was on the level. If it were later found to be a fix, then i would rate Johnson even higher.

I dont really think that Johnson's resume lacks quality at all. The best fighters in the world were the likes of Langford and McVey, whom he did not fight but Johnson had already beaten them. I know the size and experience argument raised, but i just dont really buy it too much (even though i would have loved to see him defend against those two guys) In reality, Johnson, like Dempsey and many others, slackened off once he won the title. The difference is, like the greatest champions, he found ways to keep his title for an awful long time. And even after the Willard loss, which was a win under most title fight conditions, Johnson still went an astounding amount of time before he lost again. Even if he had lost to Langford or McVey, given his sitting on the title, would it have meant any more than Tunneys win against Dempsey? Especially since prime Johnson had already wiped the floor with them.

 

I am as in love with the Dempsey legend as the next guy, truly am ... also feel he is one of the true ring enigma's ... he may have been so much more but the complete inactivity of his reign stunted his progress as a fighter post 1919 ... there is also no question that he completely avoided not just his top contender , Wills, but possibly the next top contender, Greb ... to me Dempsey remains the largest unknown of the heavyweight "GREATS" and there is actually an argument that a fighter with 23 bouts, Jeffries, has merrit in this argument as he did fight the top guys in his time ...

 

True although I think that Langford, Jeannette and McVea were already good fighters at the time Johnson beat them. Jeannette had stopped Langford, McVea had KO'd Martin in one round (and weighed a solid 210 lbs), Langford was simply a freak for his size. :good

With Johnson you can atleast say that he did fight everyone that was around, even if they were quite green at the time he beat them, but Dempsey never fought Wills or Greb.

Most people tend to forget that Johnson himself was already over 30 years of age when he won the title. He fought the best on his way up.

 

I used to rate Jeffries very high but have kind of lowered my rating of fighters pre -Dempsey. I think Jeffries was a great fighter ( who unfortunatly is remembered from a fight coming back from a 6-year Hiatus at the age of 36 and losing 100 lbs with no tune up. Its like rating Ali from the Holmes fight. Dempsey had the inactive phase, that hurt him also and the non -fights with Greb and Wills. I am inclined to think Dempsey would have beaten both men but the fights should have taken place. Jeffies was one of the strongest heavys...a George Chuvalo who had cat like speed, I have heard, hard to tell with the old film. Good post made me rethink those era's and the fighters standing.

 

There is no doubt that Jeffries did not want to fight Johnson. But there might be more to it than simple racism. Jeff had fought several black men. The SF Chronicle in 1903 claimed that an "inside source" told them that Jeff would defend against McVea if he won the upcoming fight against Johnson, but not against Johnson.

Why? My guess it might have had something to do with Johnson's lifestyle. Jeff was the son of a prominent minister. His father disapproved of him boxing. Johnson's "sport" lifestyle which included frequenting gambling dens and cathouses might have been beyond the pale to men as conservative as Jeff's father and perhaps also to Jeffries himself. I would like to see this issue explored by a biographer.

Jeffries never publicly gave that as his reason for not fighting Johnson, though. He just used the color line and he used it openly.

 

Since I raised the Choynski conspiracy theory earlier, i think I will raise my Johnson Jeffries conspiracy theory. (again, all hunch and nothing else substantial or suggested from other place). I think that Johnson and Jeffries may have been reasonable friends and may have actually been building towards a fight. I know that this seems strange, but when you think about it, Choynski and Johnson were apparently good friends. As evidenced by the jail story where Choynski taught him everything (in fact if you believe my conspiracy you will know that Johnson actually threw a fight with Johnson). Choynski and Jeffries also were good friends as evidenced by the arrangement for Jeffries to spar Choynski in his illfated comeback.

In 1903, Johnson had won the Coloured championship and was becoming a standout fighter. But his golden run started after the choynski fight (or at least after the hank griffin fight. During this time, he managed to fight and beat Jeffries brother. By 1904, jeffries had run out of opponents. He had fought both Previous champions, twice, he had fought and beat Sharkey twice, he had comprehensively beat the best black fighters like Peter Jackson, Bob Armstrong etc and he had fought and beat the best young white contenders like Gus Ruhlin. He had even used a Lie about a fake knockdown story used by the miner Monroe, to try to garner interest. His only fight left was against the world coloured champion.

The scene was set. The tension was being built with the obligatory colour line quotes and i will never defend. We even had the rumour about offering to take Johnson in a boileroom brawl. A market for this fight was being built and to be honest, it was the last real challenge for Jeffries. I cant see how any other fight would be a close contest.

The problem is that Hart actually beat Johnson. I dont think either of the two expected it, and it was a poor Johnson performance that cost him the fight. I think this lost any built up hype and this finished any hope of a match.

For the record, and while i am on conspiracy theories or hunches without evidence, i think it almost certain that Johnson would have had an energy sapping virus and this effected his performance but that is another story.

Anyway, the final piece of the jigsaw is that when Johnson did get himself back in the picture, he immediately made overtures for a Jeffries fight. And eventually, it was made. Again, showing that these two may have been closer connected than we originally thought. Incidentally when these two met, they met in the desert in Reno Nevada. Interstingly, isnt that the same state as Area 51? Which, incidentally, reminds me of another Conspiracy theory i just thought of ...