Comparing 'no mas' to Jones v Toney

As far as results go - I'd agree - there was no even tapering off for Duran. However, we do know that, post-Leonard I, we never saw him compete at 147 or below again and, whilst his destruction of Davey Moore carried faint echos of vintage Hands of Stone, Duran would never perform at the height he once had in Montreal. That is to say, Duran was not turning the clock all the way back.

His weight issues, following New Orleans, were effectively managed by his going up in divisions, where a lot of the time he was physically over-matched at both 154 and 160 - all the while, growing older. But, past prime Duran, at weights upward of 147, relied more on his extraordinary skill-set than on his physical prowess and the Duran/Barkley fight is a great example of this.

Few would consider Light Middleweight and Middleweight Duran, as being in his physical prime, which is why his performances against Cuevas, Moore, Hagler and Barkley are all the more remarkable. But, these results do not necessarily blur the line representing his tapering off, physically, when there is a clear point in Duran's career, at which he was competing well outside of his comfort zone.

 

This is a great post and i have no problem basically with any of it MM.

I'm not sure you've addressed your original point tho. For sure Duran was losing effectiveness when aging and fighting in heavier divisions - absolutely mate.

I'm just not convinced all this weight cutting took it's toll, not noticeably. As you so beautifully put - he simply aged and also fought bigger men thus losing physical advantages with every weight jump. Well he might not have lost all that much when he jumped to welter actually given how he performed there.

 

I recall comparing the two performances Jones was better than Leonard. They both moved but when Roy stopped on a dime he was unleashing grown man punches. Leonard was using slappy shoe shines from his amateur days. I dont think Ray was taking any chances and throwing punches like Roy Jones.

 

Thanks JT.

Perhaps I didn't address the original point directly in my response, but was rather highlighting Duran's skills as the enabler for his comebacks and better performances; why he was able to pull off great results, in spite of his age, division and physical self.

We can't know for sure the impact that Duran's extreme weight-cutting had on his physical prime. However, we know that it can have dramatic effects on physical performance and I think it is a fair consideration, when we look at when the wheels started to come off for Duran and what ensued thereafter.


A more recent and perhaps quite useful example of something similar is Ricky Hatton, who also yo-yoed in weight and underwent extreme weight-loss to make 140. By some people's estimation, Hatton might well have past his physical prime by the end of 2003 (Ben Tackie) when he was only 25 years old. Despite this theory, Hatton still mustered a career-best performance in 2005 against Kostya Tszyu. However, not only was he never able to repeat the same kind of physical feat again, but also (and quite oppositely) his ability to perform over the distance became quite impaired.

Of course, Hatton relied almost entirely on his physicality to succeed and had nowhere near the array of tools that Duran possessed. Thus, we saw a guy, who by the age of 30, was pretty much shot - even though, he had been able to look like he'd regrouped against Malignaggi, before getting starched by Pacquiao. (I do find the similarities between this Hatton KO Loss and Duran's getting face-planted by Hearns an incidental but, nonetheless, interesting comparison.)


The point is that, despite appearances, the effects of continual bouncing up and down in weight are real and, when combined with other factors and confounding variables, I think a very thin line can come into play; either side of which lay very wide differences in performance. Duran had already had a career of over 70 bouts by the time New Orleans came around. It is quite conceivable that he hit his wall in 1980 and his career, at that point and going forward from then, does bear this out.

 

I'm picking up what you are putting down. I'm just a bit torn as it is a very very blurred topic. I think Hearns was just one of those things. Duran fought forever (decade and a half) after this and from memory may have been dropped just once. Hearns up at that weight was his kryptonite for mine but that's another topic altogether of course.

I think with a guy like Jones we can define what you are talking about with great precision. That foray to heavyweight and back at a career stage where fellow greats like Monzon and Hagler were retiring did him in imo and it was very abrupt.

 

Yes - it's not an exact science, for sure. Although, I'd suggest that a key difference between Duran and Jones was skill-set and the ability to adapt.

Jones' unorthodoxy couldn't succeed for him, without his speed and reflexes. Instead, he became a KO waiting to happen. I'm also not sure how much weight Jones had had to cut as a LHW, before his jaunt at 193lbs or what that 193lbs was composed of. My own view is that Jones just simply grew old overnight, with the weight cut accentuating that situation.

The striking aspect of similarity, however, is the height of performance-levels dropping quite suddenly; appearing to have caught everyone by surprise and seeking a rationale as to why.

 

Well said mate. Jones did lack the fundamentals to survive once the god given gifts faded. Ali was a similarly gifted monster but amazingly he also was one of the most durable and determined fighters to ever grace the ring.

 

I was going to mention Ali in my previous post, as well. Both superhuman durability and his 'in orbit' ring IQ saw him craft his extended career success.

 

Absolutely mate. Sure he diminished but he was certainly still able to compete. 74 was a decade after he first won the title and he was able to turn back a guy like Foreman. Barely anyone in history would have beat him that night for mine. Sure Ali still had some serious assets but he'd lost a lot. Deep in the running for best win in history imo.

 

I'd have to agree that it's up there as the greatest win ever. Indeed, it is difficult to consider, with confidence, that there was any heavyweight, who could have beaten Foreman that night - other than Ali.

Howard Cosell's 'pre-fight eulogy' on Ali's boxing career, which is quite extraordinary in its 'writing on the wall' attitude, pretty much declares that the end of Ali's career is nigh...


See @2:19 (and please excuse the title of the video, which for a fan of Ali looks like a daft schoolboy error)

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I think this win is what signifies the separation of Ali from the rest of the 70s talent.

 

Loving your work!!!