Comparing the master boxing heavyweights from Corbett to Holmes

Comparing the master boxing heavyweights from Corbett to Holmes.

What's a master boxer? A fighter who almost never going to lose on points in his prime! He is often fast handed, hard to hit, and smart. A Master boxer does not rely on a big punch or super size to win. Those guys are punchers, boxer pucnhers, or super heavyweights!

Power: Corbett 5, Tunney 6, Ali 6.5, Holmes 7

Tale of the Tape: ( height, weight, and reach ) Corbett 5, Tunney 5.5, Holmes 7, Ali 7

Hand and foot speed. Tunney 8.5, Holmes 8.5, Corbett 9.5, Ali 10

Boxing ability and versatility on OFFENSE ( Jab, hook, cross, body punch, uppercut, in-fight, out fight, combinations, feints ): Ali 7.5, Corbett 8, Tunney 8, Holmes 9

Boxing ability and versatility on DEFENSE ( avoid getting hit on the outside, avoid getting hit on the inside, …..block, slip, duck, clinching power and technique, parry, high guard / fundamentals, reflexes, covering up, head movement, avoid lapses, footwork to get out of the way ) Holmes 7.5, Ali 7.5, Tunney 8, Corbett, 8.5

Stamina: Ali 8, Holmes 9, Corbett 9.5, Tunney 10

Durability: Corbett 6, Tunney 8.5, Ali 9, Holmes 9

Heart and will to win: Corbett 9, Ali 9.5, Tunney 10, Holmes 10

Ring Generalship, Smarts, and Poise in the ring: Holmes, 9, Corbett 9, Ali 9, Tunney 10

Quality of opposition fought: Tunney 5.5, Corbett 7, Holmes 7.5, Ali 9.5

*What they added to the game of boxing. New punches, techniques, strageties, writen words... how to fight swarmers and south paws, philosophy, and video for the next generation to study. Holmes 6, Ali 8.5 Tunney 8.5, Corbett 10

Total score, and its close:

Corbett 86.5
Tunney 88.5
Holmes 89
Ali 92

 

Master boxers rarely lose decsions.

 

Defense is a lot of things. I think Ali had too many defense lapses, had mediocre defense vs in-fighters, a low guard, and some poor fundamentals. Ali got " nailed " too many times and hit with too many jabs to rate extremely high on defense.

I think Ali was a great actor and was hurt more than his opponents realized. And Ali was hurt quite a few times in his career. A 9 is a great score. It is rare. To put it into context, guys like Mercer would be a 10 in durability.

Heart is a lot of things. Ali coasted too often. When Ali needed a big final round vs Frazier, Norton, or Young did he really go all out in the fights he lost or might have lost? I think not. Remember, the young Ali wanted to quit vs Liston, but Dundee would not let him. Besides 9.5 is a great score. Now that I think about it, a 9 might have been better. Holmes in my opinion had to show more grit later in fights, fought better hurt, and had more dramatic moments when he needed them.

Ali came out #1. I am not underestimating him here. I think it’s a case of judging the full picture. Where we disagree is on a .5 to 1 factor. This is not a big disagreement. Its a 5-10% disagreement on 1 to 10 scale. Make no mistake bout it. Ali was great, but he had his share of incompletes and flaws too.

 

Corbett was 59-0-4 before losing to Fitz. Some were real fights, others were exhibitions.

Tunney officially only lost once in 80+ fights.

The prime Ali only lost twice, and they were vs hall of fame fighters on their better nights.

Holmes was 48-0 at one point.

As for Walcott, he lost more decision than all of these men combined; and some of them were to non-hall of fame type of opponents. Hence Walcott was not a master boxer even if he had the traits of being one.

My $.02 on the topic.

 

Do you think Ali or Holmes woudl be able to go full speed, in 20 rounds or more in the heat like Corbett did? No way. Tunney's ability to keep moving on flim in the later rounds, is more impressive than Ali's or Holmes. I have seen this.

Counter point, they only had to deal with them when they got tired, and could move at 100%. Roy Jones did not get tired agaisnt John Ruiz, because he did not clinch him.

Counterpoint, Ali clinched too much, which is away of resting, and rested on the ropes too often.

I'd favor Frazier, but an upset is possible for Tunney. I agree that Ali and Holmes fought better ehavies, which is why I game them higher scores on quality of competition.

 

Weight drains a fighter’s stamina. Ali and Holmes would have better stamina at 200 than 212-215. How did Ali and Frazier look with a few extra pounds on them? See my point? Tunney and Corbett did not have the extra bulk to carry; hence their stamina was a bit better. As I said before, a master boxer uses skills, and smarts. The bigger guys get tired when chasing fleet footed opponents who don't stop, unless they have a big time height and reach advantage to dictate the action.

Tunney never seemed tired on film...ever. I have footage of Tunney in the later rounds. He was fresh as a daisy. Corbett went 20+ rounds more than once with reports saying he was moving quickly well past round 15.

Box rec is wrong. Corbett went 20+ rounds with Sullivan, 60+ rounds with Jackson, 27 rounds with Choynski, and 23 rounds with Jeffries.

I agree, but Ruiz being 220+ pounds did not slow Jones down one bit. And Ruiz punked out when Jones landed on him.

When one wrestles in the clinches, it burns stamina far faster than boxing from a distance. Corbett wrestled when he had the advantage, but did not wrestle much vs stronger guys like Sullivan or Jeffries. Yes, I am sure Tunney was most active. More active in terms of moving around than Ali or Holmes was in a 15 round fight. You can think the old timers were not as good, but they clearly had better stamina, fought longer matches, had the fights in the out door heat of daylight, and did not have any gator aid or AC.

 

Regarding my comment on a master boxer, he hardy ever losses on points. A master boxer does not get pointed, draw, or narrowly defeat vs lesser types as often as Johnson did. Johnson was a master clincher, not a master boxer.