Congrats to vitali on comeback win....

Wrong, wrong, wrong. There is noway whatsoever you can bracket "all" on a myriad of levels. I'd like to see your exact anology of "bodybuilder" tho. Just a few points

They sure have more functional strength than before they started.

Many will already have excellent functional strength but do bodybuilding type weight training to enhance it and others area's.

Even pure training bodybuilders aim markedly at strength training - strong muscles are often big muscles as a whole.

As soon as i made noticable gains in size and strength my performance in all sports was improved, from golf to tennis to cricket to sparring and hitting the bag.

 

It's difficlut to though, Mendoza. Peter's performance was just so poor that it's hard to simply ignore it.

As I said in another related thread, Peter must surely have made at least rudimentary preparations on dealing with Vitali's height and reach advantages...he must have had some gameplan. Yet, he was lethargic, slow and seemed completely at a loss. He seemed to lack any sort of strategy whatsoever.
His corner was equally poor. They kept throwing out obvious observations like "you have to fight him". No ****, Sherlock.

If Peter had made a decent fight out of it, it would be a lot easier to give Vitali due credit.
Was Vitali that good or Peter that bad? The truth lies somewhere in between, methinks.

 

Actually allot of bodybuilding builds muscle that is P4P not as effective, dynamic or athletic. Also building excessive muscle takes more oxygen to maintain and hence a fighter while tire much faster with more muscle. There are exercises that build functional and explosive strength but many boxers dont know how to utilise these properly.

Peter is clearly another case of a HW boxer with useless muscle

 

Functional sports specific muscle and strength can easily be targeted tho. Holyfield would be a good example of building up quite effectively for the target sport. Tiger Woods has worked wonders in the weight room golf specific. He's actually woken the tour up in this regard. Obviously it's important to take in endurance needs as you highlight.

Peter is an interesting study. His inadequacies may have been highlighted vs Vitali, but he's still reasonably successful. I think it's skill and ability holding him back vs the Klit's, big muscle, functional or not isn't going to get anyone home when they are two or three tiers below their opponent in ability.

 

Peter has always been lethargic and 'huffing and puffing' type

Exactly weights can be a great addition as part of training but not as a substitute for old school training. BUT the right exercises must be done with the focus on strength and explosivity

Anyway as for Peter being proven/successful with his method, lets see:

Wlad - lost every round except for the KD rounds

Toney - 38 Very overweight Past prime 5'9 ex middleweight who still rightfully won the first fight

Maskeev - 37yo innactive past prime B Level chinny operator

McCline - past prime bodybuilder flaws him 3 times.

Audley Harrison - lost in the olympics to Big Aud

He hasnt faced any other contenders

 

You have been perhaps Vitali's staunchest defender on this board and I think the Peter fight largely vindicated your high judgement of him.

I am impressed by Vitali's boxing skills, which are exceptional for a man at the top echelon of size in the heavyweight division. Most big heavyweights in history were marginal boxers.

Vitali does not appear to me to be quite the puncher that his 35 ko's in 38 fights would imply. He scores his knockouts by wearing his men down. I have not seen much evidence of the explosive power of a Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, Liston, Foreman, or Tyson despite Vitali's gaudy ko percentage.

The tragedy is that because Vitali will never fight Wlad, the one man who could really test him, we may never know how good he is. His failures against Lewis and Byrd will probably keep him out of the top 20 unless he still has it in him to put together an impressive run, including Valuev and Haye.

 

I don't see how the Chris Byrd fight could keep Vitali from a high all-time ranking. Vitali was dominating Chris Byrd and had won almost every round; he quit due to a shoulder injury which later required surgery. It would have been stupid for Vitali to keep fighting with an injury that could have turned into a career-ender.

As for the Lewis fight, Vitali fought a close, competitive fight with Lewis, and the fight was stopped on cuts. There's no shame in a guy losing a fight like Vitali did to Lewis.

 

Haha, nah I'm just a really slow typer!

Great minds think alike though :good

 

You make good points, but the bottom line is he lost to the two best fighters he fought.

 

Vitali reminds me a bit of Oscar Bonavena...Maybe it's the crude effectiveness of their styles or the way they throw their right hands.

Wlad makes me think of a young Mac Foster.Brilliant orthodox and balanced puncher-but slightly vulnerable to pressure.

 

I seem to remember a certain champion in the 1910's who quit during a title defense due to an arm injury and not only escaped with the belt but with a draw. Didn't seem to hurt his legacy too much.

 

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9806E1D6103FE633A25753C2A9649D946296D6CF&oref=slogin

Well he didn't exactly quit.Who are you referring to?

 

Yes. There seems to be some sort of spin that Jack Johnson quit, but I have never seen a primary source which says that the fight was scheduled for more than ten rounds. He lasted the distance and got a draw.

This is from Ring Magazine, March 1930:

Dan McKetrick, manager of Frank Moran who was at ringside, quoted on this fight--

"Don't let anyone tell you Johnson didn't have plenty of heart. He proved it to me one night in Paris, France, and proved it convincingly. I never questioned his courage again.
"Johnson, that night, was fighting Battling Jim Johnson, an American negro, who was all arms like Elbows McFadden. In the second round Johnson let go with a hook. His forearm must have landed right on Battling Jim's elbow for Jack's arm was broken twice, awful.
"With his title at stake, Jack Johnson kept on fighting and earned a draw with one hand. When he got back to the dressing room, he fainted dead away from pain. The doctor who set the arm wouldn't believe Johnson had fought with it. 'It is not possible for a man to stand such pain,' he said.
"So never think Jack Johnson didn't have heart aplenty."

 

Johnson lasted the distance aganst Jim Johnson to salvage his title with his arm broken in two places. Far from being a mark against his heart this bout should be held up in suport of it.

Of course Jim Johnson might have won by decision under diferent contract terms.