Conn-Louis or Robinson-Maxim

They really shouldn't have been though, should they? I realize that we only have a partial version of the fight on film, but we can read the newspaper reports to fill in the gaps. They indicate to me that Conn was beating Joe handily despite what the scorecards said. The films show Conn winning pretty thoroughly, outboxing and outpunching him.

Scorecards aside, what are your impressions?

 

Billy Conn's performance was more impressive.

I haven't thought enough about "most impressive loss in history" though. That's advanced stuff, I'm still stuck on rating greatest wins.

 

Yeah the 20 min footage shows a pretty competitive fight until the 10th.

Conn had a big 11th and huge 12th, and was def ahead but at least from what is shown in the footage Louis was in the fight and dangerous.

In the 10th for example Conn was on his toes and Louis found him nonetheless.

In fact, what tipped the balance in the 11th and 12th was Conn's hand speed in close, not his footwork I'm pretty sure someone in Conn's corner mentioned that the way to fight Louis was not to run cause he would eventually catch you, actually. Can't remember who. Anybody knows?). The problem is that sort of strategy spends a lot of energy with the extended flurries and all the wrestling with the bigger guy and there was three rounds to go. You add that to the work in the body Louis did early in the fight and things don't look that clean cut to Conn's favor to me.

Also, while is true that Conn came out differently in the 13th, he didn't came out wild. He only began firing crazy after Louis found him with a 1-2 and a right in a row, to what Louis responded differently too by firing back instead of covering up like he did in the 11th.

I still think it was a matter of time. There was still 9 min to go after the 12th. Against a lot of fighters that's not much. But against Joe...

All that said, Conn was way much more than this fight.

 

Robinson-Maxim, very clearly for me.

SRR proved himself vastly superior to Joey for as long as it lasted, would have won decisively over the modern distance limit against a LHW Champion who already held a win over the then reigning HW Champion, and would later hand another future HOF HW Champion his first defeat. SRR started out his professional career dominating the likes of reigning HOF LW Champion Angott [with both officially just half a pound above 135], and ATG P4P rival Armstrong, and now came within a whisker of dethroning an HOF LHW Titleholder who had lasted the distance in challenging for the World HW Title one year earlier against another legend.

Through their 13 completed rounds, Robby utterly dominated a master veteran boxer in torrid conditions, so much so that nobody's ever seriously argued that a more comfortable climate would have improved Maxim's showing. Ray wasn't just badly outweighed, he was also a year older than Joey [who had just turned 30 the previous month]. SRR dominated Maxim far more than other bigger HW and LHW ATG HOFers did.

Louis was weight drained for Billy at 199. He ignored Blackburn [not for the first time], and listened instead to the sportswriters who convinced him to come in light for speed. After that bout, he admitted, "Chappie was right. I wasn't strong at that weight." He hadn't come in under 200 since Godoy II, and would never compete under 200 again. The last time prior to this that he'd enervated himself with weight deprivation and dehydration was Schmeling I. He was no longer a kid in his early 20s, and needed to stay above 200 to enjoy full strength and punch resistance. That's why Schmeling and Conn were able to hurt him in their first bouts.

However, while it wasn't one of the Bomber's better fight long performances, the knockout itself was superb, ironically brought on by that very weakness induced staggering inflicted by his challenger. I don't see a full strength Louis getting wobbled by Conn like that, emboldening Billy to foolishly go for the kill, thus leaving himself open for his own fatal goring.

I believe Louis-Conn I can be dismissed as an aberration. I do not believe Joe was at full strength, and can't see Billy staggering the Louis of Galento and Max Baer.

Conversely, I do not believe the 13 completed rounds of Robinson-Maxim were an aberration. Joey was capable of handling himself on even terms against any heavyweight or light heavyweight on the planet. He won the trilogy against the only opponent to ever stop him, and lasted 45 complete rounds against the greatest knockout puncher in history. He was a HW when his career began. He didn't climb weight divisions like Robby did. During WW II, he may well have been a viable challenger for Louis, and may have proved just as difficult for the Bomber to deal with. [Louis-Maxim during the mid or late 1940s may well have looked a great deal like Louis-Farr.]

Billy bombed in his postwar rematch with Louis [who commented afterwards that, "Billy had nothing"]. But Maxim, after the Hatchetman II anomaly, never bombed, now matter how long he soldiered on.

Sugar Ray versus Maxim II? I know who I'd bet my mortgage on! Any takers for Billy on Louis-Conn III?

 

:good just as I saw it. Conn WAS firing back in retaliation when he got caught. His huge effort in round 12 took as much out of him as Louis did receiving it.
Each time Conn opened up it was to fight Louis off. Each time it took something out of Conn. It was a tremendous effort what he did but Billy just could not keep it up. He was on empty and could not retaliate one more time to stay in the fight.

There was a myth going round for years that Louis went to sleep and only woke up once Billy got fresh. Conn did not get fresh, he was simply fighting Louis off him until he could no longer do it.

 

No. Conn was not opening up the whole round.

Round 13 Billy set out to beat Louis to the punch with big shots, but he was not wasting anything and he certainly was not putting more than two punches together until Louis hurt him with a one two. That's when Billy let go a volly of shots. Not before. Louis exchanged with him and whilst Conn did try to drive Joe back it Back fired.

There was no decision to knock Louis out, he was fighting for his life. Committed to the moment. Then as Louis came back they came together and Donovan broke them. As both colect themselves as the ref parts them, Louis beats Conn to the punch. Louis Caught Billy badly with a right. From then Conn was out on his feet. Gone.

Conn was not opening up when he was caught at that moment. That volly of blows had ended. The sequence of events that started the earlier two fisted onslaught from Billy was JOe Louis hurting him. Prior to that Conn was fighting intelligently with short two punch leading hooks. He was not opening up.

 

Greater losses? A bit of a misnomer, but some candidates:

Robinson-Gavilan 1
Hagler-Duran
Leonard-Hagler
Benn-McClellan
Barrera-Morales 1
Marquez-Pacquaio - choose any fight
Mayweather-Castillo 1

Off the top of my head

 

I should have been more clear. I meant that he was going after Louis. Of course he wasn't swinging the entire time.

Proof that Conn had a change of plan. Instead of being content to continue to outbox Louis and win a decision, he was going for the KO, as evidenced by his aggressive, flat-footed approach.

Louis changed nothing the entire fight. He fought the same. Conn changed and it cost him. Louis did nothing to facilitate that change. It was all Conn's decision. The films show it. The fight reports show it. Every eyewitness report I've read is unanimous on it. He even told his corner that he was going to go knock Louis out

I think we're arguing two different points. My point is that the only reason Louis was able to hurt Conn in the first place is because Conn was THERE to be hurt. He was fighting flat-footed. He wasn't tired at all (again, Conn had nonpareil stamina). Again, he told his corner that he was going to go knock Louis out and that's exactly what he was trying to do. There's no other reason for him to come down off of his toes and fight flat-footed. His game plan changed radically. It was a combination of that and his opening up on Joe when hurt that led to his downfall.

If Conn had stuck to his game plan, he most likely wins. If he'd started out the fight flat-footed, he would have been stopped much earlier in the fight.

 

I'm sorry, but this is baseless and completely ignores everything the historical record shows of Billy Conn. Conn had been in wars. TONS of them and never had any stamina problems. He'd been in far rougher fights than this one (Fred Apostoli anyone?) and heavyweights had always been much easier prey for him. You're trying to make it sound like Louis ground Billy down or something until he could no longer fight on his toes and continue to box.

That just isn't true. Nothing supports it on film, in print or in any firsthand recollection that I'm aware of.

Joe had done nothing to Conn that forced him to fight flat-footed. That was all Conn's doing. He had PLENTY left in the tank going into round 13 and would have been just as strong at the end of 15. The historical record shows that he always was. :smoke

 

Conn's loss was more impressive due to the the fact he was stepping up in weight to take on a far more dangerous opponent than Robinson did. Maxim was a solid, fundementally sound fighter but not a dangerous puncher. Plus his hands were slower than Louis'. Joe on the other hand was arguably the greatest precision punching HW to ever step inside the squared circle. He had dynamite in both hands and those hands traveled very fast. Conn was taking on a huge challenge and he performed magnificently until the KO. The element of danger was always there for Conn unlike Robinson with Maxim. That's not to denigrate Ray's performance that night which was remarkable in it's own right but Ray had less to fear from Maxim than Billy had to fear from Louis and that's why his loss is more impressive in my opinion.

 

Billy was standing his ground for portions of most of the rounds. I think we agree it was a closer, more competative fight than established opinion has led the world to believe. Billy was tremendous. I just think Conn was most dangerous when cornered. It appeared to me that Conn felt the sucsess of round 12 would allow him the upperhand so he came forward but not necessarily to end things then and there. However, billy was still drawn into another exchange once Louis went for him. As conn let go with a fierce attack (in retaliation) his activity was cut short. If there was plenty in the tank it was not shown. And this rally was not as prolonged as the one in round 12. It was not Flight or fight because he was not firing back or running as Louis pelted him with a good 16 unanswered blows before Conn dropped. Conn was so so tough, he took all those shots and looked too tired to get up.

 

"What's the use of being Irish if you can't be thick?"-Conn after Louis I, when asked why he didn't stay away during the championship rounds.

Billy had no fear of Louis, and that's why he lost. That crazy mo-fo sucker punched Max Baer in sparring as a skinny teenager, then told the Larruper, "I bet you wish you had MY guts! Ray wasn't that stupid. Decades later, when Curt Gowdy asked Robinson in an interview if he was planning on going after the HW Title after beating Maxim, SRR laughed as if Gowdy was nuts, turned to LaMotta, and they joked a bit about the idea of Robby taking on a lethal heavyweight like Satterfield.

When Armstrong and Griffith got jumped and mugged late in life, they came out the worse for it. When Billy walked into the middle of a young punk's attempted store robbery, he kicked ass and drove the wannabe thug off. Dude might well have had a gun as he claimed. Billy didn't give a ****. There are some folks you just don't wanna mess with, no matter how old they get. Conn was one.