Contemporary evaluations of Rocky Marciano

To tell you the truth, I never understood why this was such a point of obsession for you.

People don't think that Rocky Marciano had good stamina because his press agent claimed that he ran fifteen miles, people think that he had good stamina because he could average around 85 punches per round over the course of a fifteen round fight.

I doubt that anybody will significantly reevaluate their opinion of him based upon this.

 

Saying something complimentary about Marciano in public is one thing but I've never heard anybody in a gym tell someone to do something the way Marciano did. If people really believed Marciano was one of the best fighters, they'd emulate what he did. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. I haven't seen anybody intentionally imitating Marciano. When someone says "damn you look like Marciano" it's not a compliment. It usually means the person looks off balance or clumsy.

The tape of Ali and Frazier is not surprising. It would be interesting to hear Emmanuel Stewart and some of the others talking in private about Marciano. Larry Holmes told the truth and 35-40 years later a lot of people haven't forgiven him, that lesson has not been lost on others. Most are careful of what they say about RM.

 

Yes, I'm trying to prove that he did not customarily run 8-10 miles per day during his training camps, ramping up to 15 miles per day the week of his fights, or whatever the Marciano Training Myth sets forth as fact. I hope that the people who have been blindly parroting that story for years now will reconsider doing so in the future.

This is not at all like trying to prove that you never cheated at golf. That would be more equivalent to me insisting that Marciano never ran 15 miles in his life (which as far as I can tell is still possible, especially if we use "ran" literally, to exclude walking and very slow jogging).

 

I will certainly not be repeating it myself, unless it is alongside the evidence that contradicts it.

I don't think it is fair to accuse the people who repeated it previously of "blindly parroting it", because it appeared to be from a reliable source.

If Lennox Lewis's pad man told us about his training regime, we would regard him as a credible source.

Just because most of Marciano's runs were considerably shorter than 15 miles, it doesn't mean that he never ran 15 miles in preparation for a fight.

There are certainly examples of fighter covering this sort of distance in training from the early 1900s.

 

Press agents are not "reliable sources",imo.

 

The only thing approaching an obsession with me here is maintaining intellectual honesty and a level playing field when comparing fighters of the past. Myth-making and tall tales that are taken as fact do not achieve either.

When did Macriano average 85 punches a round? Have you done a punch count on Walcott 1. I remember it being somewhere around 40 a round. Why aren't there dozens of threads on Ibeabuchi and his monklike training regimen, a 235 monster who averaged 81+ punches a round against an extremely dangerous opponent?

If you're looking for obsessions here, I think your aim needs to be directed elsewhere.

 

That depends upon a number of variables.

 

This doesn't quite ring true.

The first Charles fight.

It probably doesn't help that he never held the title!

He is a footnote, and consequently garners less interest.

Just one question.

Which side of the argument is actually starting the threads here?

 

I re-watched this old vid after watching a thread asking which is the best fighter 6'4 or above that Marciano could have beaten and I said Marciano could have done well v Bowe because a lot of Bowe`s shots weren`t thrown hard v Holy in their first bout, but re-watching this has reminded me just how sloppy Marciano really was, is it true that Marciano really did lack fundamentals which would hurt him v bigger men?

This content is protected

Marciano does look great on this old study though, on the inside I always felt Marciano would do well against bigger fighters:

This content is protected

 

If you want to see a complete heavyweight fight (not just a "film study") with some textbook inside fighting, this is a good one. Povetkin was fighting a big, strong, athletic fighter and while both showed good body mechanics and fundamentals, Povetkin's inside game won it for him. He always maintained his balance, never reached with his punches, threw excellent short hooks and uppercuts, didn't square up, and when he finished punching he pivoted or rolled under to avoid the opponent's return punches.

This content is protected

 

Bump

 

Larry Holmes never unified the title, never rematched a tough fight, gave up a title not to fight Greg Page and lost to Michael Spinks in Mikes first fight above 175 lbs , besides that there were many chances vs Page, Weaver, Dokes, Thomas, Coetzee, Tate when Larry had the chance to be sole Champion but never chanced it, so the truth that you say Larry spoke of is not truth at all. You can not live in a glass house and throw stones.

I remember Larry getting KO'd in the amateurs by 5'11 white guy Nick Wells 2 X and then Duane Bobick, unfortunately Ali and Cosell were commenting on the fight (its on youtube) and Ali accused Holmes of quitting - I dont think Holmes ever forgave Ali for those comments.

Prejudice goes both ways but when Marciano's immigrant parents came over from Italy, it was long after the color line - Italians were not treated white - in fact one of the biggest lynchings was in New Orleans 11 Italians so revisionists can not change the facts. 5,000 to 10,000 Italians fought for the North an under an Italian general for Abraham Lincoln, that same general ran the black division for the North. Abe Lincoln first appealed to Garibaldi to come over and fight for the Northern States but Garibaldi would only do so if Lincoln would declare the war over slavery and Abe was not able to do so politically at the time but a few of Garibaldi's generals came over to fight under Abe Lincoln and the North.

Marciano was the first white Champions other than James J. Braddock and Tommy Burns that did not draw the color line and fought the best contenders (only 2 of his 7 title fights were against white guys) 5 of his defences were against his #1 contender and one against his # 2

Marciano feared no man and he stated so but what other white Champions ( who actually had more than 1 defence ) until the Klitschko's ' fought all comers (Vlad and Vitali shared the title)

Marciano was undisputed sole heavyweight Champ and fought the best of his day.

Lets not pretend Marciano was some privileged white hope who got his title challenge because he did not deserve it.


Most of the Italians who joined the Union Army were recruited from New York City. Many Italians of note were interested in the war and joined the army, reaching positions of authority. Brigadier General Edward Ferrero was the original commander of the 51st New York Regiment. He commanded both brigades and divisions in the eastern and western theaters of war and later commanded a division of the( United States Colored Troops.) Colonel Enrico Fardella, of the same and later of the 85th New York regiment, was made a brevet brigadier general when the war ended.

Francis B. Spinola recruited four regiments in New York, was soon appointed Brigadier General by President Abraham Lincoln and given command of the Spinola Brigade. Later he commanded another unit, the famed Excelsior Brigade.

Colonel Luigi Palma di Cesnola, a former Italian and British soldier and veteran of the Crimean War, commanded the 4th New York Cavalry. He established a military school in New York City where many young Italians were trained and later served in the Union army.[2] Di Cesnola received the Medal of Honor for his actions during the Battle of Aldie.[3]

Two more famous examples were Francesco Casale and Luigi Tinelli, who were instrumental in the formation of the 39th New York Infantry Regiment.

 

Exactly, his insane stamina is evident in fights.

I can't say for sure what combination of hard training, smart training and talent gave him that stamina, but his stamina was clearly there. If he didn't work as hard as claimed, then he either trained smarter or was more talented.

It wouldn't be surprising that someone with such evidently awesome stamina would end up with some exaggerations as to how hard they train. Whatever he done clearly worked for him though.

 

lol

 

Which side is continually making unsubstantiated claims?