Transcribed Joe Louis's comments on Marciano from the audio-extra's on the Ali-Marciano Superfight disk. Murray Warner Computer Tournament "Louis-Fitzsimmons post fight interviews" (plugging the Marciano-Baer contest) Comments begin at 1:03:15 (as found on the Ali-Marciano Superfight dvd extras: Audio Fights -- Marciano/Baer) *********** Interviewer: Joe, what about a fight between Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano? Joe Louis: Well, I could say that very easily. Marciano beat me . . . beat me tough.... Interviewer (interupts): Oh, yeah, now that wasn't when you were at your best. I'm talking about when you were at your best, twenty-eight years old. Joe Louis: Oh, I don't know. Well he still --- Marciano's the type of fighter I think is good enough and strong enough and takes a good enough punch to fight anybody, anytime. I don't think that no one, no time before, I mean either Dempsey or me, could say "I could beat Marciano". I think the fight could be . . . It's close, it'd have to be a close fight even if he don't get a knockout, because he's too strong, thing was he don't never get tired, and he could take a good punch, and he just . . . you just can't say that I could beat him. I'd like to say that I'd fight him, alright, but who would win, I wouldn't know; but I'd like the pay for the fight -- i think it would draw money, though. Yeah I would like the pay! (laughs) (inaudible) too strong no matter the age (inaudible)." Interviewer: "Oh yeah, he's strong though. But just how ---- " Louis: "I had -- kept hid throughout my career I didn't like to be crowded." Interview: "Do you -- " Louis: "He crowded me good. This is added to the MANY comments he made on Marciano. He was not confident AT ALL. I agree with him, had he opened up and been more agressive, Rocky would have KOed him ealier. Of course, none of this is what the modern revisionists want to hear.
Were those descriptions part of the Marciano press going into the fight Kev or did you take a bit of artistic license? A sizable factor for the odds not addressed is that many felt Marciano was too small and giving up 25 odd pounds was too many even against that version of Louis. They also did not think Marciano had proven himself against enough quality yet.
Another sizable factor for the odds makers- is that they never had to share the ring with Marciano. He made his living being the underdog. What you see on film is never what the fighters really see in the ring. No one that fought Marciano underrated him after.
He was called "crude" in hundreds of articles around that time. Everyone who followed the sport seemed to have recognized that about him. The papers used other synonyms too, but "artless" was probably my invention.
For what it's worth, just stumbled upon this: "Rocky would be favored to win Friday were it not for the difficulties he had beating Red Applegate on April 30 and Keene Simmons on Jan. 29." "Brown Bomber Must Win or Give Up Game, Belvidere Daily Republican (UP), October 26, 1951.
I am pretty sure he had mentally began to really lose the plot as well, I vaguely remember it being written that he would apply mayo to his windows so the FBI could not hear his thoughts though he may have been older when he did that. I believe Louis's farther suffered from a terrible mental sickness I suppose he inherited it. God rest his soul, a good man who always deserved better.
Hundreds of articles is an incredible figure. They must have been writing about him one helluva lot and this is even before he won the title mind you. I am gobsmacked. I thought as much. He was of course still developing and yet to fully refine his style which while rough around the edges was quite effective of course. While not on the same level it took experts and fans many many years to appreciate what a defensive force Roberto Duran was. The press often carve up young prospects and emerging forces. Ali was subjected to all sorts of negativity and doubts but he was well ahead of the scribes to say the least. Larry Holmes was another who took a long time to be appreciated for the fighter he was even after he won the title. Not much fun following the likes of Louis and Ali.
To be clear, the writers didn't seem to be criticizing Marciano or casting judgment on him per se; "crude" was just who he was. A lot of articles calling him "crude" were written shortly after he beat Louis. EDIT: The "hundreds" of articles include at least one heavily-syndicated piece, so I'm not sure how many separate writers independently called him "crude" or the like.
Description of Layne after the Marciano fight (July 13, 1951 paper): "The chunky, game, aggressive 23-year-old from Lewiston, Utah, has been a tonic to the game here with his pleasing fights. It was his first knockout loss and only his second defeat in 38 fights. He's crude and has a lot to learn, but he has a chance to make himself felt again in this talent-starved business."
Louis had such a good jab in that fight, I was really impressed with it. Reminded me a bit of how Foreman relied on his excellent jab a lot more toward the end of his time. Check it out, Marciano himself mentions how hurtful that jab was.
At 8:00 seconds or so: "Joe Louis damaged his hand in the 3rd round, but we're going to see the bomber throw that left jab again and again, in the rounds to come. It's the only weapon he has". 8:50 "those jabs are beginning to really bother Marciano". So let me get this straight, a 37 year old heavily shopworn Joe Louis who was too gunshy to throw a lot of right hands and had a damaged left hand was able to give Rocky a black eye with his jabs and survive for 8 rounds...??? 9:05 Rocky winds up like 4 right hands in a row and misses by a mile. The stiff, flat footed, balding old fighter making him look silly with the slightest amount of lateral movement. 9:40 Rocky storms out for round 4 and misses a wild hook only to get himself countered by a heavy jab from Louis. 10:42 Rocky misses point blank power shots that whizz right over Louis' head and past his face. 11:39 literally point blank shoulder to shoulder and Rocky somehow misses an uppercut. A few seconds later a 2nd uppercut is blocked and a hook sails right over Louis head who ducks. Rocky's nose is now bleeding from getting caught by jabs and counters over and over. 12:05 Again Rocky misses big wild swings despite a flat footed stationary target. 12:50 Louis blocks a wild swing and then effortlessly dodges a wild right hand from Rocky. 13:44 "Joe's left jab is keeping Rocky off target a great deal" Rocky continues to get outboxed and made to miss wild swings or Joe blocks many of his shots. The announcer again reminds us that Louis injured his left in the 3rd yet is keeping Rocky at bay. Interesting. 14:48 As the fight progresses Louis is making many subtle adjustments. Before he was getting caught by right hands to the body but now he blocks them with his left elbow. He was getting caught by right hands to the jaw in the early rounds but the more the fight goes on, the more he is able to anticipate them and roll out the way with good head movement. He even starts blocking some of Rocky's right hands with his left shoulder before popping out a jab and is even landing an occasional hook and right cross of his own. He continues to dodge and block wild swings from Rocky but his body is beginning to gas out. 15:20 Rocky's nose begins to bleed once again and now he has a cut under his eye. I guess Rocky was lying when he said he struggled with Louis' jab? 15:30 Rocky finally figures out the range to land his uppercut but it doesn't have a lot of weight behind it. 15:37 Rocky throws another wild caveman right hand that is easily blocked. 16:12 Rocky lands a left to the body but Louis seemingly uses it as a measuring stick to counter with a right hand. 16:20 We're in the 7th round and yet Rocky is still missing wild right hands by a mile and failing to get the timing down. This is in spite of the fact Louis is gassing and his legs are pretty much gone. 17:25 ANOTHER wild right hand that misses by a mile leaving Rocky stumbling off balance and getting countered by Louis. 17:50-18:20 again, despite being at point blank close range Rocky can only land a few glancing blows. Throughout the entire fight and even now in the 7th Louis can anticipate his shots and block, parry them or straight up dodge the obvious wide swings. He protects his body with elbows and blocks every single uppercut attempt. Hard to believe he lost this match he is putting on a clinic. Final thoughts: Rocky got cut, bruised, and outboxed by a balding flat footed 37 year old man who looked like a 57 year old barber. He was "winning" rounds purely on his aggression and volume, many of the shots he landed were glancing blows or partially blocked. He failed to connect on a close range target dozens of times. Rocky would miss even when Louis was standing right in front of him chest to chest and had many shots blocked or dodged. He could only land body shots in the first 2 rounds before Louis began to adjust and block them. He smothered his own punches by bulldozing forward and Louis effortlessly blocked his left and right uppercuts. Rocky's right hand looks more like a baseball pitch than a right cross and Louis, despite having no legs and diminished reflexes, made him miss by a mile multiple times in multiple rounds. Louis was making adjustments and getting the hang of Rocky's style bit by bit but lost the momentum due to his body simply being unable to keep up. The younger fighter won due to sheer aggression, and volume against an opponent who was rapidly fading. The way Louis kept making adjustments and giving Rocky trouble convinces me he would have beaten the dog **** out of Rocky in his prime. A gunshy, shopworn, flat footed old opponent with an injured left hand kept a prime Rocky at bay for multiple rounds, countered him, and gave him a bloody nose and black eye. Make of that what you will.
By the way, I'm surprised that you're surprised that so many people considered him crude—especially when he first hit the big time. It was sort of hard to miss.
"hundreds of articles" calling him "crude" around the Joe Louis fight time. Why would i not be surprised, or disbelieving. That's a big big statement.
Marciano himself said he was surprised that while Louis' jab still felt like a hammer, he had no right anymore, of which to speak.
