Convince me about Sonny Lston

You gotta take the bad with the good. There are no excuses for the bad (his quit jobs against Ali), although getting knocked out at age 37 when no longer motivated doesn't really hurt his standing in my opinion. Many great champions were long retired or struggling with mediocre fighters at that age.


The goods, he was very dominant between 1958 and 1962. The only competitive opponent was Eddie Machen and the only top heavyweight who he didn't get to fight was Johansson, who by the way, is the #2 heavyweight of that period outside of Liston himself. Then he destroyed Patterson twice in one round.

It is true that many of his opponents were smaller or somewhat old (Valdes), but many other champions had physical advantages over their opponents. Ali was faster than all of his opponents. Lewis was bigger than most. Marciano was stronger than most. That doesn't mean the wins don't count.


Despite not being tall, he does have a long wingspan, hits very hard (often in a clubbing way) and seems to have good stamina although he only went 12 once. One of the stronger hitting champions in history. I do think he is very slow for his size however.

 

I think a comparison with Tyson is in order to get the measure of him. His years 1958 to 1962, when he cut a path off destruction that was topped off with a KO of Patterson, is comparable to Tyson's streak during 1986-1988. His twin defeat against Clay/Ali is also comparable to Tyson's losses to Holyfield. And both were KO'd by less than stellar opponents, with the difference that this happened more times to Tyson and at a younger age (Douglas).

This is why I have them very, very close in my rankings.

 

I'd say that this is a fair post. On that last sentence, I'd inject a little context into it. First, most of the extant film of Liston is him well into his 30s and back then the 30s were today's 40s. He's expected to slow down. He was not as slow in earlier films. Secondly, Liston was one of those guys who were like lead. They had the heavy physical presence that far exceeded what you'd expect from their listed fighting weight. I watch those films of Liston during his best years and even some later ones and you can see oppoonents who look bigger than he is behaving in a manner that suggests that they know that Liston is too strong. His fists were huge. His arms were long and heavily muscled. In 1959 those veins in his neck looked like cables. He knocked out 7 of Bethea's teeth in 1958 and gave Wepner 57 stitches in 1970. So sure he's slower... but it's no surprise why.

I used to spar hard with a MW contender in the 90s named Rodney "The Punisher" Toney at the Boston YMCA on Huntington Avenue. He had that same leaden ring presence and heavy hands. He'd hit me on my arms and give me an immediate headache from the jolt. On the inside, I felt like an autumn leaf. I'd try to turn him and he wouldn't move. It was like fighting a wall that's closing in.

 

Yet another Bobby Dazzler. I think your "heavy" description of Liston is inspiring work. I know exactly what you mean, and have of course known the same types of individual. They almost defy gravity and perception.

 

So you finally see that I am correct.

Bravo, mi amigo.

 

I think someone is very, very ****ing high.

As bad as the pushovers were who Tyson sometimes fought, the Machen and Williams and sundry other never-was fighters that Liston made his fearful reputation upon were savagely mediocre. That said, Liston was a solid fighter with some obvious flaws in a weak era.

 

I've always questioned whether Liston is a great fighter myself. Even before he quit twice to Ali, I felt he was somewhat oversold.

Basically, he looked good against fighters who stood in front of him (Patterson, Folley, Williams), but looked lumbering and ponderous against fighters who moved on him (ie: Machen, Whitehurst twice, and of course Ali). Also, you'll notice that his biggest KOs (again, Patterson, Folley, Williams) came against fighters whose chins were considered questionable otherwise, though granted it was rare to see them KO'd as quickly as Liston did. He was obviously very big and strong (for his era), and had a strong jab and a big left hook, and a very solid chin. However, he was plodding, fairly hittable, his hands weren't particularly fast, and at times he looked like a one-handed fighter. Then of course, there's the fact that he threw his title away by disgracefully and inexcusably quitting to Ali, and the fact that he never did jack after that, which sends any chance of having a legacy as a great fighter down the sh*tter IMO.

 

First off, Liston put together a nice winning streak > Ali.

The other consideration is that Liston accomplished a lot without a top notch corner or manager. What other heavyweight champ did that? Even Max Baer had top management. All those guys were polished either by a great trainer and a top notch management team and usually both. I'm sure if Liston had the same caliber management, he would've never even fought a Clay in 1964 and would've had some softie defenses like Cooper/London/ and so forth and milked that title. Don't fight the 22 year old with reflexes. Then, a Clay fight doesn't happen until 67 or so and who knows how well he holds up wearing the same shoes Liston wore when Patterson was champ? I mean he had that real close bout w/ Jones and was climbing off the deck against Cooper.

 

Liston was the Tyson of his day - knocking everyone out and fighters being scared of him. Louis was saying he was the greatest heavy ever until someone put him in his place. He was undefeated for 10 years. 37 years old in 1964? Where did you get that info? No longer motivated for the Clay fight. You gotta be tripping. Liston was certainly motivated and really wanted to kill Clay LOL. Clay was a 8to1 underdog - that itself speaks volumes.

 

Why were they more mediocre than the coked up and self destructive 80's generation? Thing is, he beat what there was to beat, and did so very convincingly. Lacking a time machine, there's no more he can do.

 

Johansson # 2 heavyweight over patterson?? patterson twice starched ingo. Johannson would be very lucky to make it to the 3rd round vs liston.

 

Who's your favourite fighter?

 

And i give him full credit for doing so. A top ten or twelve alltime heavyweight. There is no arguing his greatness. However, the degree of his greatness has been inflated at times.

 

Most experts in 1963/64 didn't think Clay had a chance against Liston.

Henry Cooper wouldn't fight Liston. Ingo might have "if the money was right".

But Liston had only fought 6 rounds in 3 years and he was getting old when he fought Ali.

And the WBA should have let him in their tourney, but he was banned because he might have actually won it. (potential Liston Part 2)