Convince me about Sonny Lston

If this thread is any indication, there seems to be a general softening toward's Liston the fighter here on Classic. He used to get crucified and at times it seemed downright personal. Perhaps his tormentors are feeling charitable on Christmas Day...!

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was part criminal at heart. He put cops upside down in trash cans. He was a stick-up man. He was a labor goon breaking up strikes for Cosa Nostra during his HW career in the 50s. He was owned by the same. He was a drunk. He was arrested 19 times although I'm freakin positive that most of those were nothing but cheap harassment by whole departments who persecuted him even during his reign as Champ. I think that he did instruct Pollino to put the astringent on his gloves somewhere after round 3 in the first Clay fight. I'm utterly convinced that the rematch was a dive and I don't believe that he had a choice (lest we judge). His last years were spent leading a double life. He had a heroin problem and he had a gambling problem. Does anyone know what his last purse was for the Wepner fight....? $0. He bet 10 large on Mac Foster when Foster fought Jerry Quarry the same month that Liston fought Chuck... and Foster got KOd. He gave the last 3 grand to his handlers... which left him with nothing.

Sonny was the 24th child of the 25 that Tobey Liston sired. His father was brutal towards him and to the end of his life Sonny carried those crow-feet scars on his back from those whippings. His becoming known to us was through the interventions of a Catholic priest who encouraged him to box while Sonny was in prison. Sonny idolized two men in his life...

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and

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Liston's reign as champion is nothing to write home about. That is without question. However, as a fighter I can't see him being anything less than formidable. I've gone further... I still see no HW beating the 1959 version except for 'Great' one. A few others would be around 50/50, but only a very few.

This man busted canvas heavy bags like no one ever has. His trainer Johnny Tocco had this to say:
"Nobody hit those bags like Sonny. He tore bags up. He could turn that hook, put everything behind it. Turn and snap. Bam! Why, he could knock you across the room with a jab. I saw him knock guys out with a straight jab. Bam!

Let's look at his effectiveness in the ring:

First things first. Let's give Sonny credit for fighting only 6 guys in 54 fights who were without winning records. In his 6th fight he's thrown in against Summerlin. Sonny, mobbed up or not, wasn't fed a series of tomato cans like most fighters. Compare the w/l records of his opponents against say, Marcel Cerdan.

Liston could go a solid 10 rounds with a skilled boxer in Machen -and outbox him. He could outbang a larger slugger in Williams and take monster shots. He stopped Mike DeJohn in 6 and DeJohn was considered up there with Foreman in terms of power by none other than Chuvalo. Chuvalo fought him in DeJohn's last fight. Liston got him near prime. He went right through Nino Valdes. Liston dominated punchers.

While green, he could drop a split decision after getting his jaw broken.
Cleveland slammed home monster shots on him and Sonny took it and returned it. That shows heart. He could do exactly what he should have done against a smaller champion -destroy him. Twice.

He handled boxer-punchers like Summerlin, Henry Clark, and Zora Folley -giving Folley his first KO loss. Folley went on to defeat Cooper, Bonavena, and Chuvalo and was no joke. Liston knocked out #2 ranked HW contender Roy Harris in 1 round. If my memory serves me well not only Harris, but Folley, Clark, DeJohn, Williams, and Wepner were all HW contenders at some point.

Right after Maine in '66, he fought Zech, who was a superheavy and rendered him a bleeding mess. Another fringe contender in Amos Lincoln cound't last either. His last fight was against a young Wepner -who was over 6'5- and utterly destroyed them. And Liston was not only old and an alcoholic, he barely even trained for these.

..... We can criticize the contenders of his era, and fault him for the Clay/Ali fights, particularly because after he slapped Clay in the Thunderbird, he saw no need to train hard, but less so for the associations who cashed in on him at the fiasco of a rematch (where Liston was still the betting favorite). I would caution anyone from betting much against him at his younger, hungry best. He was nearly a complete HW specimen then ...with skills to spare.

 

Liston's guarantee was said to be around $13,000 with two more to be paid under the table. However, it's actually not certain what he walked away with. The knockdown timekeeper who shared the same dressing room with Liston swears two men walked in and handed Liston an envelope with only $7,000 inside. Three guys who flew with Liston to the fight and back swear he left town with either $13,000, with another claiming it was $15,000. One of them said that 10 grand of that went to pay a losing bet on Jerry Quarry fight.

 

<<<< The story behind the 1964 "Black Santa" cover of Esquire:

Liston was like a child around the radio hero of his boyhood, Joe Louis. When George Lois, then the art director at Esquire, decided to try the black-Santa cover, he asked his friend Louis to approach Liston. Liston grudgingly agreed to do the shoot in Las Vegas. Photographer Carl Fischer snapped one photograph, whereupon Liston rose, took off the cap and said, "That's it." He started out the door. Lois grabbed Liston's arm. The fighter stopped and stared at the art director. "I let his arm go," Lois recalls.

While Liston returned to the craps tables, Lois was in a panic. "One picture!" Lois says. "You need to take 50, 100 pictures to make sure you get it right." He ran to Louis, who understood Lois's dilemma. Louis found Liston shooting craps, walked up behind him, reached up, grabbed him by an car and marched him out of the casino. Bent over like a puppy on a leash, Liston followed Louis to the elevator, with Louis muttering, "Come on, git!" The cover shoot resumed.

~ From Sports Illustrated, 2/14/94, "O Unlucky Man" by William Nack.

 

:happy

 

As been stated on this forum before:

"Sonny said Cleveland Williams could hit as hard as he could, but Williams couldn't take it as well as he could".

 

At the end of the day history will always remember Liston as an underaciever.

As it is his acomplishments actualy stack up prety well on paper.

He basicaly cleaned out the heavyweight division before he won the title. Nobody ever destroyed a reigning heavyweight champion the way Liston did to Patterson untill Tyson/Spinks. Remember also that Patterson got a second chance and didnt manage any better.

Liston was a verry complete package. Apart from his relativley slow hands he really didnt have any weakneses. He was great on the inside, and outside, and at mid range. He had superb ring generalship and an instinctive ability to anticipate what an oponent would do next.

I dont think he lacked heart in the strictest sense. On his way up to the title he was hungry focused and willing to fight on with a broken jaw. After he lost the title he lost his drive and desire as many fighters do.

 

Liston's long reach made up for his relatively slow, but large and well timed fists. Have a look at prime Liston vs Bert Whitehurst in '58. Look at that jab and that reach. Hard to counter a punch like that or to take risks inside with a brutal puncher like Liston.

 

This prety much sums up the problem.

You couldnt stand anywhere inside his range where he couldnt do nasty things to you. He was good outside, inside, and in between.

This made it dificult to find a formula for beating him that didnt involve backpedaling.

 

I don't consider Clay/Ali to be anywhere near the best HW in history, not even close. He was green, not yet truly confident, skittering and didn't carry a whole lot of pop (unless you count the shadiness that surrounded the second fight). However, his style and size were the kryptonite to Liston.

 

I agree.

Liston would have had a royal chance against that version of Ali if he got his act together.

 

Your definition of "time at the top" is used more freely than mines. Well, Liston's time at the very top was brief as he held the title for around year. That can't be remotley denied by anyone. I take into consideration he was fighting top heavyweight contenders throughout the late 50's and into the 60's. And regarding him not fighting many fighters with losing records on the way up, thats somewhat irrelevant. It looks good on paper, thats it. Many great fighters today and of the past have had outstanding records on paper yet the quality they face is poor. I'm not saying this is the case with Liston, for the most part anyway. However, It's not something that holds much weight at all.

 

Not by me. I have him in the lower top 10, about where I have Tyson.