Convince me about Sonny Lston

Whats happening Scouser, a few Boxing day beers celebrating your teams win today?

 

Could you be more specific--what happened on the ground to indicate Liston was the #1 heavy in 1958 or 1959?

 

No mate. I don't drink in the house (unless it's wine at xmas dinner). Just enjoying relaxing before my daughter's birthday party tomorrow :yikes and a big session after the match on Sunday.


Just watched The Blues win though on Sky Choice. Very impressive of late. :good

 

Your first points - fair enough. I will respond to this bit:

1 & 2: agree.

3: Of course you'd be happy to see that, we'd all be.

But realistically, in '58, Liston had done **** all to earn a title shot. Only in hindsight it would've rightful, but when your biggest win is a journeyman in Whitehurst (not even by KO either), then you gotta wonder.

There's also another side of the medal: when Liston won the title, he fought only once a year and gave a rematch. And became somewhat lazy. If he had KO1 Patterson in '58, TKO1 Patterson in '59, and then only fought once every year, he may well have ended up with a lesser resume and may have lost to a lesser fighter in a big upset, to regain the title in the rematch and then be humiliated by Clay.

 

--take a bow, JT. I don't change my mind easily (...either stubborn or right toodamnmuch --I haven't decided which yet).

 

Sonny was doing okay and in round 4 caught Martin with a round house left hook that almost brought the sheep in. Martin was, as you probably know, a sparring partner for Liston and was installed as a 3-1 or 2-1 underdog. Both fighters knew each other well. Leotis had a pretty good gameplan to deal with Sonny -turn the older man and make him reset and move, and keep him preoccupied with the jab. Hooking with a hooker is not advisable but jabbing with a jabber is --and I remember that Leotis was outjabbing Sonny for much of the fight. And although Howard Cosell missed it as usual, Sonny was getting cracked in those last few rounds when Leotis turned on -left hooks landed on Sonny all over the place. Sonny's hands were low throughout the bout and inexplicably -Sonny Liston who was closer to 40 than to 37- was relying on head movement to avoid Leotis' big shots. That finishing right hand was there for most of the last few rounds.

Sonny showed all the signs of an old figher in that fight. He was slower than usual, he went through the motions well (take a look at the head movement) but his reaction time was nowhere. He also had balance problems and looked downright unsteady at times. This is age. Sonny's arms and legs were thinned out compared to say 1960 and his middle was heavily muscled but softer than you'd expect. This is age... but it is also what the bodies of guys who drink too much begin to look like in their late 30s/early 40s. Wepner said that Sonny looked alright from a distance but when you got up close to him, he looked like he was 50.

If you saw him against Zech in '66 or even McMurray in '68, Liston was steadier and appeared to be stronger. Now Zech warred with him, but McMurray was using lateral movement the whole time until Sonny caught with him and put him through the ropes (-almost move for move like Marciano did Louis, incidentally).

Even in the KO loss, the first real one in his career, Liston's dangerousness was still felt:. Leotis, who was in line for a title shot against Frazier after that win, got a detached retina, complements of Liston, and never fought again. He was finished at 29 years old.

 

He was under-rated as a boxer. Even against Ali, he landed good hard blows, and not just when Ali was temporarily blinded. Cleveland Williams and some of the others he kayoed were solid fighters.

The fight he lost against Leotis Martin was no shame. He knocked Martin down and just got hit with a clean shot. Martin was a highly ratedfighter at the time and Liston was probably well over forty. Before the Martin fight, Liston had won 8 fights in a row in '68 against good fighters. I give him credit for coming back at such a late age.

 

Over and above the ratings, everyone knew what was going on. Cus was finding detours all over the place to avoid Sonny Liston.

Liston was #1 in Ring since at least 7/60 when he beat Zora. (Johansson, Chris, was ranked #3 -behind Machen) Nat Fleischer was demanding that Liston be given a title shot as soon as possible in August of 1960. Pontius is correct that Patterson and Johansson had a return bout clause for a rubber match but it's pretty clear that Cus was behind that because his overriding objective was to preserve the title for Floyd's -he didn't want Valdes, Folley, or Machen... although his fear of Sonny loomed over them all. Cus avoided them all based on loose and limber reasoning. He lamented about the prospective gate in a Machen fight, yet became a moralist when it came to Sonny.

Sonny did two things of note during this time. The first is, he stayed active but not only that -he accepted the short money to fight Harris, Williams, and Folley (he took 25 large to Zora's 40 -despite the fact that Liston was on an 8 fight KO streak and hadn't lost in 6 years while Zora had lost less than 2 years earlier against Cooper and just took a snoozer decision against a fighter who lost twice as much as he won).

The second thing he did was get out of his contract with shady Pep Barone. Sonny went so far as to show up at Cus's office... "is you or is you ain't going to give me a title shot?" -Cus told Sonny to give him a list of managers and Cus would choose one for Sonny. Sonny, who was smarter than the average bear, said "ain't that nice. What you mean is that you want to control me." Sonny surprised one and all with his choice at a press conference in ~Philadelphia (I think). In Barone's place, he got George Katz who was active in local politics and boxing (managing Gil Turner before Sonny) and took 10% from Sonny.

--And what does Floyd say to this? Be sure that he was Cus's mouthpiece and wasn't speaking on his own. He says that Sonny's dumping Barone doesn't mean that he's clean. In order to get a title shot, Sonny will have to "prove" that he is "free of all outside harmful influences." I'm sitting here with a glass of Campari... had I been Liston and this been 1960, believe that my shot at the title would thus be jeopardized.

....
Anyway, I've enjoyed Pontius and McGrain's debate immensely.

 

Mailer put his wrong prediction down to 'witchcraft' and that Floyd lost in the first fight because he was knocked out by a "Psychic Vortex", caused by the Mafia surrounding the ring. He claimed his 6th round KO prediction was still correct but that the true scenario didn't have a chance to enact itself. The rematch was going to be sold on this premise that Floyd and Cus D'Amato (Mailer big friend) had a chance to overcome this 'witchcraft'.


Mailer died a couple of years ago, of course. He finally disappeared up his own arse.

 

A few points
Johansson is (I think) the only champ who never fought a fighter with a LOSING record.
Valdez wasn't really a top contender for Floyd's title.
I too think Liston a tad overated but still a top 15 ATHW.

 

Those who knew him well said he had considerable natural intelligence. Especially about people, which is no surprise, and a great wit. This comes out alot in his interviews. To wit: "Patterson said he won't fight me because of the Mob. But I'm the only Mob he's afraid of." "When Sonny was waiting for his hearing with new manager Katz, he leaned over and said "if I get 10 years, you're entitled to 10% of that too." Others who knew him less describe him as being quite, but polite. He was illiterate.... I know a barber who cut his hair once in Plymouth when Sonny was training in White Cliffs. He said that Liston didn't say much but that he was nice and obliged for pictures without a problem. Geraldine was there... and he was evidently on his best behavior when she was around. He loved children -and these were probably the only beings black or white who didn't judge him.