Convince me about Sonny Lston

Yeah, he was a regular Rhodes Scholar and Gandhi rolled into one.

 

Did you miss where it said "he was illiterate"? Did you miss an earlier post where I said that he was a "criminal at heart"?

 

on liston as a fighter,he does and i suppose quite rightly get judged by many for his two fights with ali.i always feel this is harsh.at that point he was slowing down wasn't training like he used to and was sluggish and of course being in there with the fastest heavy of all time would make him look even worse. i prefer to think of the guy for his two fights with the young,hungry cleveland williams.i'm not overrating williams, over time i think his standing has been levelled off on here but at the time he was strong,fit,had good tools and hit like the kick off a mule.sonny certainly wasn't flawless in there,but what you saw was a guy with a good all round game.a great jab at the end of a freakish 84" reach,his judgement of distance was good,he was good at distance,mid range and on the inside with a devastating left hook,being a good hooker on the inside is unusual for someone with such long arms.the other thing was his chin,williams who was a banger hit him with some monster shots,but he just walked him down and did a number on him both times.head to head i would have liston between 5 and 10 for legacy probably 15 to 20

 

I knew this guy once who was a real hard a55. One of the top doormen in the city. The kind that would keep the local gangs from moving in on a club and forcing it to let their drug dealers in. Seemed to dislike everybody and was economical with conversation.

When children were around he was all smiles and was talking to them and being playfull.

It dawned on me that he was a shy man and that children were the only people who didnt intimidate him.

 

undeafeated from 1954-64 (1954 only loss against Marty Marshall by Split decision and Liston had a broken jaw). won on points in 1960 (Eddie Machen) and 1958 (Bert Whitehurst). All other wins after 1958 Whitehurst points win - 13 Ko's until losing to Clay.

 

We'll call it the Frankenstein Effect.

 

Not everyone thought Sonny Liston was an invincible ogre in his own time, some had a more sober and realistic perspective. Here's an excerpt from a SPORTS ILLUSTRATED article that came out a week before Liston fought Clay the first time :

"
What one sometimes forgets is that a large part of the Liston legend is built upon his last three fights, fights that were spread out over a three-year period and lasted exactly six minutes and four seconds. In less than a round Liston twice knocked out Patterson, the weak-chinned former champion, and humiliated an inept German, Albert (Quick-fall) Westphal. But before that Sonny Liston sometimes had more than a little trouble defeating fighters whose names were hardly household words. Even in their own households.
There was, for example, Eddie Machen, who went 12 rounds to a decision, taunting Liston all the way. Bert Whitehurst twice lasted 10 rounds to decisions. Mike DeJohn staggered Liston, and later, when the fight was stopped, DeJohn had to be restrained from going after Liston once again. Zora Folley had Liston cowering and covering from a volley of combinations. Cleveland Williams all but knocked Liston out. Lumbering Howard King went eight rounds with Liston, standing toe to toe, swapping punches all the way. Marty Marshall broke Liston's jaw and beat him. In a rematch Marshall knocked Liston down. In a third tight Marshall hurt Liston, by Sonny's own admission, and went 10 rounds before losing the decision. Rotund Willi Besmanoff slipped Liston's jab and lasted seven rounds. Jimmy McCarter, who beat Liston in an AAU championship bout, later stood up to him defiantly in training camp.
Some of these fights were long ago, and Liston has improved; perhaps none of the fighters could do as well against Liston today, although at least four are eager to try. But their success and their tactics indicate how Liston can be beaten by a strong, courageous man."

The entire article can be found here :
[url]http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1075623/index.htm[/url]

 

Reads almost like a haters view, IMO. Some real sensationalism in that lot, and i'd bet the author was hard with joy when Clay beat the Bear.

 

You should read the whole article.
It's more balanced taken in its entirety, and it's contemporary, rather than the assessments we give here.

I dont agree with it all. But interesting nevertheless.

On the other hand, people criticized Holyfield for being decked by Cooper and still do, and for "struggling" with Holmes. Joe Louis still gets ripped for Conn and Galento.
It seems that no one really knows or cares that the invincible ogre Liston was knocked across the ring by Howard King.

 

Sonny was much smarter and friendlier than he might have been made.Just watch some interviews.

 

So you don't find what you actually quoted from the article a bit biased or rich?

 

That paragraph purposefully outlines the "case against" and makes no pretenses to the contrary. It takes a critical viewpoint, and yes, IF it were the entire article, we could say it's too biased or negative.

On the other hand, much of it is factual.

And my purpose of quoting it was to show that Liston was NOT unanimously regarded as invincible prior to the Clay fight, as is often assumed. Some journalists were obviously of an opposite or less enthusiastic view.

Compared to some of the stuff written on this forum (and that includes stuff YOU and I write, if we are honest), and the ways we criticize or highlight flaws in a fighter or his resume, I dont actually think the bit I quoted is even that extreme.
I guess the writer was just pointing out that the invincible Liston had weakneses too.

 

Interesting article. You can see Clay's victory in how Machen thought Liston should be handled. That Liston should be tame on the inside was news to me, though. He had very long arms, of course.

 

Marshall himself said in late 1963 that the only one who had the style to upset Liston was Clay.