Convince me that Cleveland Williams...

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by catchwtboxing, Oct 24, 2018.


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  1. catchwtboxing

    catchwtboxing Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    ...is one of the best never to have won the title. I was thinking of this because McVey had him beating Johanson, and Lackbuster has him as one of the best ever. Love to hear from you guys.

    A few points:

    1. Cited by guys like Foreman and Chavulo as one of the hardest hitters, but much like Ernie Shaver, that power just did not seem to be there against the best. Maybe it was the skill set that did not allow him to deliver it, but the big wins are few and far between.

    2. In 93 fights his best wins that I recognize are Ernest Tyrell (who he also lost to), Wayne Bethea, Alex Miteff, Omelio Agremonte, and Young Jack Johnson. Not bad, but hardly murderer's row. Nothing here to suggest that he was in any way exceptional.

    3. Failed against the best, being beaten twice by Liston, drawing with Machon, and being KOd by Satterfield. Lost to one bum in Sylvester Jones. We will of course forgive everything after the shooting.

    4. Seems to be most defined by his first loss to Sonny Liston, where he fought nobly and rocked the future champ before being stopped.

    5. By the little footage available, seemed to be a big and great looking fighter with two-fisted power and decent speed and fundamentals, but nothing special in terms of footwork, head movement, combinations, etc.

    So it seems that Cleve' is one of those guys whose "greatness" is mostly a function of people's subjective impressions.
     
    catchwtboxing, Oct 24, 2018
    catchwtboxing, Oct 24, 2018
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  2. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Is it possible the lack of big names on his resume might be because they were not exactly anxious to fight him? Would he have a live chance against the following?
    Patterson
    Cooper
    Folley
    Mildenberger
    Jones
    Johansson
    London

    ps He also beat Rischer and Daniels.
     
    mcvey, Oct 24, 2018
    mcvey, Oct 24, 2018
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  3. unitas

    unitas Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Williams was certainly a talented fighter, but not a great one. sure he would have had a Chance against some of the weakest Champions like Johansson and Patterson. but then again, that applies to a ton of other heavyweights.
    and it´s not like he would have been a huge favorite over either one. in fact i think he is the Underdog vs both.
     
    unitas, Oct 24, 2018
    unitas, Oct 24, 2018
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  4. catchwtboxing

    catchwtboxing Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Thanks for the responses. I guess the answer is "no." He was a solid contender, but one of those guys with a reputation that just dramatically outweighs his actual demonstrated ability.
     
    catchwtboxing, Oct 24, 2018
    catchwtboxing, Oct 24, 2018
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  5. klompton2

    klompton2 Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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    Vastly overrated by some.
     
    klompton2, Oct 24, 2018
    klompton2, Oct 24, 2018
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  6. InMemoryofJakeLamotta

    InMemoryofJakeLamotta I have defeated the great Seamus Full Member

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    I read a thread where someone had him winning by KO over a prime Tyson
     
    InMemoryofJakeLamotta, Oct 24, 2018
    InMemoryofJakeLamotta, Oct 24, 2018
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  7. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    That would certainly be a bridge too far,imo!
     
    mcvey, Oct 25, 2018
    mcvey, Oct 25, 2018
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  8. Glass City Cobra

    Glass City Cobra H2H Burger King

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    He's the Ike Ibeabuchi of the 60's. So much potential: big, hard hiting, good fundamentals, but ducked by many top fighters and tragedy outside the ring completely derailed his career.
     
    Glass City Cobra, Oct 25, 2018
    Glass City Cobra, Oct 25, 2018
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  9. The Undefeated Lachbuster

    The Undefeated Lachbuster On the Italian agenda Full Member

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    People who put him over Tua, Shavers, Harry Wills and Archie Moore are crazy

    that being said, his performance against liston and some of his more devastating wins ranks him highly among contenders for me
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2018
    The Undefeated Lachbuster, Oct 25, 2018
    The Undefeated Lachbuster, Oct 25, 2018
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  10. crixus85

    crixus85 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Cleveland Williams was exhaustively dissected on this site approx' 6 - 9 months ago. It attracted a good deal of discussion and worth searching out.
     
    crixus85, Oct 25, 2018
    crixus85, Oct 25, 2018
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  11. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    I remember reading an interview with Sonny Liston before he challenged Floyd Patterson for the title. He was talking about who he was going to defend the title against, as if he already had it. When somebody asked him if he would defend against Ingemar Johansen, he replied "sure, if he beats Williams." He gave the same reply for a couple of other potential challengers. It was obvious that he saw Williams as the benchmark.
     
    janitor, Oct 25, 2018
    janitor, Oct 25, 2018
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  12. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    I read a quote by him where he said he find out all about himself and his potential when he fought Williams.
     
    mcvey, Oct 25, 2018
    mcvey, Oct 25, 2018
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  13. GOAT Primo Carnera

    GOAT Primo Carnera Member of the PC Fan Club Full Member

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    Who might that be hr hr :lol: https://wwwDOTboxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=706099

    You forgot La Starza and Cockell.

    @janitor I´ve seen one where he got asked: "When did you know you´d be competitive to win the title?" He said after he beat Williams.
     
    GOAT Primo Carnera, Oct 25, 2018
    GOAT Primo Carnera, Oct 25, 2018
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  14. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Sometimes you get a fighter who is held in very high esteem by their peers, but their paper record doesn't quite back up the contemporary opinion.

    Williams is almost the textbook case.

    As historians we have to go with the paper record, which says that he was at best on the same sort of level as Machen and Terrell.

    Does the testimony of his peers suggest that he could have had the potential to be much more?

    Absolutely!
     
    janitor, Oct 25, 2018
    janitor, Oct 25, 2018
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  15. catchwtboxing

    catchwtboxing Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Which is all well and good, and you can add that to the Foreman and Chavulo quotes, but the fact is that against their common quality opponent, Eddie Machon, Johanson scored a first round KO, and Cleve only a draw. Also, Johanson' record is dramatically better with far better wins, far fewer losses, and no losses to bums.

    Certainly Sonny Liston's informed but subjective opinion must be treated with respect, but not so much respect that we are going to ignore the objective reality. Cleve demonstrated NOTHING that anyone has shown me to be considered on Ingemar's level. Not even close.
     
    catchwtboxing, Oct 25, 2018
    catchwtboxing, Oct 25, 2018
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