Could 180-199 pound fighters hang with the modern day giants?

Discussion in 'World Boxing Forum' started by InMemoryofJakeLamotta, Jul 6, 2023.


  1. InMemoryofJakeLamotta

    InMemoryofJakeLamotta I have defeated the great Seamus Full Member

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    We don't see it because they don't make matches of a 185 pounder vs a 230 pounder anymore. But they did in times past. And i don't mean 180-199 pounds with day before weigh ins but 210 pounds on fight night. I mean 180-199 pounds on fight night.

    What makes me wonder is me watching Bert Whitehurst vs Sonny Liston. Now, many on here group Liston with the modern day heavyweights. In the same vein as AJ, Bowe, Mike Tyson, Tyson Fury etc.

    Well, Whitehurst took prime Liston the distance. All 6'0 190 pounds of him. Liston failed to stop a 190 pound opponent. Now, had they never fought, many would look at his height and weight and figure that Liston easily demolishes him. But that's not what happened.

    Could Bert Whitehurst survive the likes of AJ? What about Parker? Or Bowe? And he's not even an ATG. Are we just assuming that putting in 180-199 pound fighters (on fight night) vs modern day heavies are massacres waiting to happen? Or are we depriving ourselves of good fights. There could be some Jerry Quarry's out there that we will never know of. I don't know if Quarry would have been allowed to fight Ron Lyle today and we would just assume that Lyle demolishes him due to the size difference.
     
  2. ikrasevic

    ikrasevic Who is ready to suffer for Christ (the truth)? Full Member

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    Sure Bert Whitehurst wouldn't have survived Bowe.
    I'm pretty sure Bert Whitehurst wouldn't have survived AJ and Parker.
     
  3. Reg

    Reg Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Liston spent most of the fight head hunting a smaller quicker boxer and landing nothing of note outside of jabs. When he finally did land he had a hard time following it up. Liston really wasn't cutting the ring off very well in this fight, or really at all. In round 9 Liston had him hurt big and spent the whole round following Whitehurst in a straight line moving almost entirely with half steps. Whitehurst was stumbling hard ready to go and was able to circle off the ropes without a problem.

    With that being said Whitehurst showed incredible toughness. There's a chance he could replicate that performance against Parker as Parker suffers from a lot of the shortcomings Liston did in that fight. And I don't think Parker hits as hard as Liston.
     
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  4. Decker

    Decker Boxing Addict Full Member

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    To answer the OP. Among fighters with near equal skill. ABSOLUTELY NOT.

    Re Quarry. Until he got older he often weighed in mid 190s to around 200. In today's lingo a solid CW. Lyle was clearly bigger but not that much bigger. From boxrec Quarry 200 & Lyle 219 for their fight. So in weight Lyle was about 10% bigger (yes, I know he also had height & reach on JQ). I see no reason why a bout between two fighters of those sizes would not be allowed in this era.

    A 190# "HW" of those days (think Patterson) gets demolished by 230-250+ modern HWs of any decent skill level.
    There's a reason we have weight divisions.
     
  5. Philly161

    Philly161 "Fundamentals are the crutch of the talentless" banned Full Member

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    i think if they could, they would, because there's still a lot more money to be made at heavyweight
     
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  6. miniq

    miniq AJ IS A BODYBUILDING BUM Full Member

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    When Fury shows the world what he does with an extremely skilled 220 pound cruiserweight then people will understand

    Usyk was always a big cruiser also. I don't think he's ever actually fought anyone bigger than himself at the weight.
     
  7. Dynamicpuncher

    Dynamicpuncher Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Well Cunningham who moved up from Cruiserweight and barely weighed over 200 pounds floored Fury and was competitive.

    If these older fighters had the benefits of modern training and PEDs then yes they would be able to compete.
     
  8. Levook

    Levook Well-Known Member Full Member

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    The answer is easy: yes they could hang and the better ones whip anyone around now.

    And the ATG HWs? Forget it, the 'monsters' get slayed.
     
  9. Reinhardt

    Reinhardt Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Schedule the fight for 15 rounds and lets see if todays oafs can hang with a 190 - 200 pounder for that distance
     
  10. Decker

    Decker Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Most of these hypothetical match up aren't going near 15 rounds - unless the great 190-200# fighter of the past runs for nearly the entire bout. Hard to get a decision for "effective running". If they try to exchange more than a bit, they're getting T/KO'd early-mid rounds.

    Patterson (fast & glass jawed) & Quarry were two of the top CW HW of the past (late 50s into 70s). How many of the top HWs do they beat today? Or even from LL, K bro era? You'll say many b/c you're thinking based on nostalgia, emotion, and likely other less nice reasons. I say they beat next to none of the 2000s to date era top HWs. Who does Floyd or Jerry beat today? Fury, Usyk, Wilder, AJ? Not a chance. Hrgović, Ruiz, Joyce, ZZ? Very unlikely. Even lessor current HWs beat these two 9 of 10X. The only edge Floyd/ Jerry have on modern HWs is speed, and not by that much over some of the more nimble modern big guys. It's nowhere near enough to make up for being weaker overall - outgunned in weight, strength, punching power. You'll likely cherry pick examples to 'prove' your point.
    Floyd and Jerry* would be very competitive in this eras CW div., maybe title holders, b/c that's what they are.

    I'll even up the ante using three top HWs from the so called 'golden era', Shavers, Lyle, Norton. Today they're small HWs. Who do they beat among current top HWs? On their best night maybe 1 win. Off the top of my head characteristics: Shavers (huge punch, glass jawed, poor engine), Lyle (big punch, sluggish of hands & feet, average engine & punch resistance), Norton (glass jawed, good engine, awkward style with a good punch). None of them were particularly fast either.

    Matching up the above three w/ Fury, Usyk, Wilder, AJ produces 12 fights. I'd estimate the moderns go 12-0 with 10-2 on the low end.
    And those are HWs not CW sized HWs of days gone by. I could've also put the 6'3" (big in the old days) Ali, Foreman in there, with 5'11" Frazier, but too many people still hero worship them vs. 2000s era HWs.


    * Usyk & Holy likely defeat both at CW.
     
  11. Limerickbox

    Limerickbox Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Theres LHWs getting in the ring at 185-190.

    So those guys wouldnt even be CWs, they'd be LHWs today.

    I mean, you could argue that Berbiev could knock off a number of decent HWs, but he wouldnt be big enough for the elite guys
     
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  12. Bigcheese

    Bigcheese Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I don't think they would. If they fought extremely negative and just tried to survive they might see the bell.
     
  13. Pat M

    Pat M Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I think that an extremely good smaller man could beat one of the modern huge heavyweights in a one time fight. I think Beterbiev is exceptional, he is balanced, powerful, fundamentally sound, has stamina, etc. IMO, if Beterbiev did not cut weight, just came in at whatever he usually carries into the ring (190-95?) and was given a fight with one of the modern huge heavyweights, he'd have a chance to win the fight. But if Beterbiev had to fight one giant after another I don't think he could do that. It would be too hard on him physically to fight 10-15 people in succession who out weigh him by 50-60 pounds. Because of their size they would be harder to move, harder to hurt, their punches would be harder than people his size, it would wear him down.

    Having to face guys like Bakole, Martin, Hrgovic, Pulev, Chisora, Takam, Zhang, Joyce, Miller, Ruiz, Joshua one after the other would be too much for a small fighter. But if Beterbiev could just move up and fight one, he might win.
     
  14. BCS8

    BCS8 VIP Member

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    It very much depends on the styles of the lighter guy. If you are Rocky Marciano fighting a stream of 240lb bruisers that fight the same way as you, your lifespan at the top is gonna be short even if you win the first few on sheer guts. If you are Chris Byrd or Billy Conn or a guy like Bivol looking to outhustle the big guys you might, depending on the matchups, be successful indeed. We all saw RJJ bamboozle Ruiz. Their styles meshed well for RJJ. Now on the other hand there's a reason why RJJ never went through with the putative Sanders fight - the style would be awful for him.
     
  15. Redbeard7

    Redbeard7 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    A 199 lbs Beterbiev is a good shout. If Ruiz had been replaced with Beterbiev against Joshua in New York, Beterbiev would have had a good chance. He's a great temple puncher (it was a counter hook to the temple which messed Joshua up) and he could have lulled Joshua into a false sense of security on the backfoot (a position he'd rarely been seen in) before targeting the temple, as he did vs Smith.
     
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