Could Anderson Silva have accomplished more had he never joined the UFC?

That your best comeback after being owned? :hi:
We've been here before in multiple threads, you have no viable contenders for Anderson at 185, same goes for GSP at 170.
If you do, Id be more than happy for you to prove us all wrong, with your superior intellect. Feed the Zuffa Zombie Morono

 

The guys a Fedor fanboy but as I said I think there is some truth to his arguement, Anderson has never faced a striker on the level of Manhoef or Vitor.

I actually like some of the "dancing"(the first round or two agenst Maia was like watching some kind of 80's hong kong breakdancing/kung fu crossover, all it was missing was Yuen Biao in a loud shirt) but it has IMHO created an impression of superiority that I'm not sure is there.

Those moves can often work agenst less than great strikers but...

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt1GcBeYUmY[/ame]

To me he's still alot closer to his old Chute Boxe teammakes than he is K1 level, his sucess isnt really built on technical perfection but rather exellent finishing ability when he has someone hurt.

 

He hasn't fought the level of striker as Manhoef because Manhoef is the only striker that good that fights MMA around 185, and he doesn't really offer a legit threat as an MMA fighter.

As for Vitor, what has he done that Silva hasn't in terms of striking? Oh, I know, been beaten several times standing in MMA.

Anderson Silva is an MMA fighter; anything about some hypothetical matchups against unproven fighters from another sport is meaningless.

 

I wasnt saying that Vitor(or Manhoef for that matter) was a better striker than Anderson just that Anderson hadnt faced a striker of his quality. I'd say Mousasi and perhaps Misaki are better strikers than he's faced in the UFC aswell plus of course the possibility of moving up to LHW perminantly which hasnt happened.

MW isnt overflowing with striking talent I agree but surely that backs up my arguement that it simpley isnt a very strong division. Alot of the UFC division is made up of guys with pretty glaring weaknesses or "jack of all trades master of none" fighters.

 

Not really though, is it? Maia has possibly the best BJJ in MMA, Chael Sonnen is pretty easily the best wrestler at 185, with Leites not being far off Maia, and Hendo not being that far off of Sonnen.

That leaves Franklin, Marquardt, Lutter, and Leben he has fought in the UFC at MW, with Franklin and Marquardt being legitmate top 10 fighters. Forrest Griffin at 205 is no easy task either. So that leaves Leben, his first fight; Lutter, a debacle that was a waste of time, and James Irvin as his first fight at 205.

 

Yeah it is, Maia's BJJ is great but his striking and wrestling are both pretty poor as are Leites's, Sonnens sub defence is terrible, Lebens standup defence is poor, Lutters cardio is terrible, Cote is french.

All have pretty glaring flaws in their games which Anderson was able to exploit to beat them the same same way other less fighters have, I don't think any of them besides Sonnen was actually top 10 in terms of ability at MW.

Hendo and Franklin were good wins but ultimately they were fighting at MW because they lost at LHW. Nate is a good fighter aswell but not at the level thats been hyped recently for me.

Anderson is obviously on a great unbeaten run agenst decent opposition, he's just lacking in really high quality wins for me. Career wise he really should have moved up to LHW in 2008, nothing he's done since then at MW has really helped his rep much for me.

 

Again why does it have to always be all or nothing when discussing MMA? I can think Anderson's achievements arent quiet as great as they've often been hyped to be without wanting to totaly discredit him in a dumb monaro like fashion.

I think my accessment of alot of the MW division is pretty honiest, its simpley not as good as LHW with many of the more sucessful guys being fighters who have patchy records at 205. Whats more its been a mixed up division for years with few fighters showing much consistancey and rankings often determined by activity and the vagaries of stats.

Does Maia not have very questionable standup? isnt Lutters cardio terrible? everyone has flaws but alot of the guys at the top of MW seem to have more of them than most other divisions to my eye.

Franklin and Hendo are Andersons best wins at MW and you look at who the lost to at LHW, Machida, Rampage, Lil Nog, Arona, all of whome Shogun has beaten. If were talking #1 P4P and possible GOAT I think there needs to be more than that personally, Franklin isnt near to the level of Nog when Fedor beat him for example, those big matches are there for Anderson at LHW but he hasnt taken them.

 

You said that they were not "masters" of anything; how are Maia and Leites not masters of BJJ and how are Hendo and Sonnen not masters of wrestling?

First you say they aren't masters of anything, then you say they aren't well rounded enough.

So your argument is basically "A = B while at the same time A =/= B" It's an incoherent and logically impossible argument.

 

I think you misuderstood my post, I didnt mean that guys with a glaring flaw in one or more areas of their game could also be reffered to as "jack of all trades" but rather that there were two seperate groups of fighters, some with flaws and some I'd consider "jack of all trades".

There are guys with flaws in every division of course but as I said I think they have been more obvious with many title challanges at MW in recent years than they have in most other divisions, theirs a difference between Maia and Aoki. Both great BJJ fighters with poor standup but Aoki is far more effective at taking the fight to the ground, it takes a quality performance to avoid it where as the flaws of alot of these guys at MW have often been exposed by less than great opposition.

The reality is IMHO that MW was and to some degree still is a mixed up division without the same money on offer that LHW and WW have. The rankings for alot of the names mentioned have often been more about activty than a defintive emasure of quality while there just isnt the same draw as the divisions either side of it. We see alot of guys at LHW who could make MW or be decent sized HW's, alot of potential MW's on the other hand preffer to cut to 170 or bulk up at 205 and only end up at 185 when results or inability to cut force them there.

 

You say the difference between Aoki and Maia is that Aoki is far more effective at taking fights to the ground, but in what fights has Maia stuggled to take down his opponent? The Silva fight and thats it.

You say Maia has poor wrestling then how did he take down Chael Sonnen one of the divisions best regarded wrestlers en route to subbing him?

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Maia is clearly a top 10 middleweight in terms of both talent and resume. I don't know why your trying to downplay the level of talent at middleweight or Anderson's achievements but its getting a little tired.

 

Poor is perhaps overstating it but he obviously had trouble taking Anderson down and was unable to enguage Miller on the ground for any lenght of time either. The throw agenst Sonnen was very nice but not really indiciative of what we've seen from him.

Aoki by comparison has had little problem engauging pretty much everyone he's ever faced on the ground, he's both a superior wrestler and much better at pulling guard than Maia is. Guys who have beaten Aoki have still had to enguage him on the ground, guys who've beaten Maia have been able to avoid his strenght on the ground, I think its clear which of those two is easier to achieve.

In terms of record Maia was/is definately top 10 I agree but as I said I don't think ranking is a great judge of talent at MW due to the amount of fights that havent happened. By far his biggest win is agenst Sonnen and that was obviously a great style matchup for him given Chaels sub defence.

 

Did you even watch the fight with Melendez?