Could Anderson Silva have accomplished more had he never joined the UFC?

That fight still ended up on the ground pretty regularly. My point wasnt that Aoki was unbeatable but rather that his weaknesses were harder to exploit than Maia's. In order to beat him Melendez had to actually enguage him on the ground which needed high level BJJ to do sucessfully. The guys who've beaten Maia though have avoided going to the ground with him, thats obviously less of a test.

Look at it this way, Semmy Schilt may well have been a better striker than Crocop even back in his MMA days. However the fact his wrestling wasnt great ment he was much less able to utilize his strenght.

 

The probablem is were not talking about "bad" fighters but rather "less good" ones. If your talking P4P and GOAT then its going to be a question of highlighting flaws for very sucessful fighters, I do still afterall have Anderson #3 on that list and #1 by a mile at MW. People just get too defencive when you have posters like the Monaro with an obvious agenda looking to bash someone.

We are starting to see depth emerging at MW I agree and Anderson does actually look like he may have 2-3 pretty good tests ahead of him. In terms of the fighters he's fought in the past though that lack of depth and disorganisation resulted in a relative lack of quality in his opponants(considering he's been UFC champ for 5 years).

Franklin was hyped as the #1 guy at MW by many afterall, obviously a good fighter but who had he really beaten? I think its noteble that none of guys he beat pre Anderson achieved a great deal afterwards. Thats obviously not just true for Franklin either, guys like Filho in Pride were also hyped as #1 at MW without having to face tons of competision because the division was so disorganised. Good fighters yes, truely great fighters? not for me.

Nate is obviously a good fighter aswell but in recent years he's often been hyped as the second best guy in the division while in reality he's got a patchy record.

Guys like Leities, Lutter and Cote were clearly not of the standard you'd expect to be challanging for a title in the UFC(bar HW) post Pride. The reason they got their shots was the lack of depth in the division and ultimately the reason Maia got his was Vitor's injury. The belt being on the line really doesnt change the fact that those first three werent great tests for Anderson just as the 205 title in Pride being on the line didnt make Kanehara a great test for Wanderlei.

If its a choice between in and outside the UFC at MW then its really a question of looking at where Anderson could have fought. If everything had gone just right then yeah he might have been able to achieve even more because he could potentially have faced guys like Hendo, Filho(pre drug problems), Akiyama etc aswell as the guys around today. Impossible to say how things would have unfolded though, he could alternatively have had problems finding big matches since Japan didnt seem to be that interested in him after the loses in Pride(thats I'd guess why he signed for the UFC in the first place).

As I said though I think the biggest factor is that he didnt move up to 205 full time post Hendo. That resulted in him missing out on what could have been some of the bgigest matches of his career and instead spending a couple of years fighting lesser comp putting in less than impressive performances. That isnt me bashing Anderson, thats me being a fan of watching him perform in big fights.

 

Everyone has those kinds of wins I agree but in Andersons case I think they get more hype than most because the title was on the line. You ask someone why they think Anderson's #1 P4P and the resposne will genrally be the lenght of his reign as MW champ.

As I said what really hurts his case for me is the lack of massive wins, Franklin is not on the level of Nog, Crocop, Machida etc.

The reason Anderson left Chute Boxe was if I remember rightly that they werent able to get him Pride matches. Things could have worked out but he wasnt really THAT hot when the UFC signed him up, he might well have been stuck on B level shows for another couple of years if he hadnt taken that offer.

Anderson at 168lbs was a scarecrow though and we know he cuts a signifcant amount of weight to make 185 these days, I don't think he'd be a small LHW. Rashad only fought at HW due to the problems cutting on TUF, in reality he isnt a big LHW at all and could probabley make the cut to MW without losing tons of weight

I can understand the reason for not wanting to move up to LHW and I never thought he was ducking Machida but the doesnt change the fact that he missed out on alot of big fights by not doing so. As I said this is isnt "bashing" so much as it is disapointment we didnt see him in a number of quality LHW fights that could have provided career defining wins and possible GOAT status(for him or for Shogun).

Pac is a classic example that fighters often need to move up divisions to seek out the best opposition, he's already moved up further beyond his natural division than Anderson would be at LHW IMHO and would be grossly undesized at 155.

 

Why is it assumed that he would have even fought top guys in other orgs if he wasn't in the UFC? Who was he before the UFC push? A striker, but not a household name or even casual mma fan 'must-see.' So why would other champs/great fighters want to fight him?

Another thing: who are the non-UFC fighters that are consistently fighting talent on the level that Silva's beaten since his tenure as champ? Outside of Aoki, I don't see anyone consistently fighting the caliber of opponents that Silva's fought in the UFC.

 

Franklin is/was certainly a top MW I agree, he was not however a dominant force in the division. You look at the guys he beat and how many of them would you consider elite? OKami is really the only one for me and that was hardly an impressive performace, just about out jabbed him for a couple of rounds then was almost subbed in the 3rd, to me thats no better than Nog/Ricco(perhaps worse given that I think the Pride criteria were superior) and you don't see that fight used to justify the Nogs greatness.

The reason Franklin was ranked so highly was that very few fighters were on impressive runs back then, he was a big fish in a small pond pre Pride collapse.

Crocop and Machida by comparison had beaten a number of big names, most obviously Lyoto had beaten Rich himself.

The problem with getting matches in Pride was there before his last fight though, that was the first one he'd gotten in a year and a half.

He would still obviously have been sucessful but by that stage the UFC was likely the best option for him.

Forrest is argeubley the biggest guy in the division though, many guys much smaller than him have been sucessful at LHW(Shogun, Machida, Wanderlei, Rashad).

Anderson being a scarecrow at 168 isnt meaningless, he was certainly sucessful there but I think its clear his natural weigh is much closer to LHW than it is WW, whats more his current higher weight has clearly prooven to be his most effective weight.

I think I'm critical in a realistic fashion in a debate(P4P) thats always going to be about picking holes in the records of great fighters. Alot of the guys Anderson has defended his belt agenst arent elite, Franklin while good isnt a truely great fighter, the better matches were clearly on offer at LHW, I don't think any of those points is dishoniest. That its also possible to make a much less honiest arguement like "Shogun only fought cans in Pride" isnt really much of an arguement agenst them.

 

How are you going to get all those fights though? It's most likely going to be serious negotiations with each of the different fighters, and finding an organization for all of the fights to take place in.