Could anybody beat prime Ali? If not, who comes the closest.

Oh, and to put Williams (Ali's worst title opponent in the 60's) in perspective: Six years after being demolished by Ali, he would, at 39, beat a certain Terry Daniels - who came fresh off a title fight with Frazier.

 

It seems like u fail 2 comprehend your own post.
1) Whether if Lyle just said he was hurt or said he was not hurt, does not take from my claim that it was a fixed fight.
2) Where did I claim that he was seriously hurt? I claimed the opposite.

 

If Ali was past prime when he lost to Frazier then Frazier was past prime when he lost to Ali in '74 and '75. Works both ways. Thing is, in arguably the biggest fight of all time, when they were nearest to their primes and both were unbeaten, Frazier won.

Who was the last top contender Folley beat prior to facing Ali? In '66 he beat Jefferson Davis twice and an 8-2 Henry Clark. In '65 he beat Bob Foster and an 8-0 Oscar Bonavena (he can hardly claim credit for that based on Bonavena almost beating an even greener Joe Frazier 18 months later). If Folley was considered the top challenger then it doesn't say much for the rest.

 

I actually don't think FOTC was Ali closest to the peak in the trilogy. He looked better in the rematch. In fact that period (Norton rematch, Frazier rematch and Foreman) was the best he looked in the 70's. According to Mailer, who saw him plenty in the gym, the Frazier rematch and the Foreman fight was the only two fights he trained adequately for after his comeback so that might be the explanation. Mailer also said he partied instead of resting after training ahead of FOTC, and Dundee has said something similar.

Anyhow, Ali was older for all three fights, had had more fights as well as losing his best years to idleness. Still he won 2 out of 3. Because he was the better fighter.

Folley was considered the top challenger because Ali had cleared out the rest. He was a good fighter and looked good against Ali, no more no less. If he was "shot as ****", so have many, many challengers been through the years. Very few of them match the standards that Folley all of a sudden has been held to.

 

And what an effort Daniels put forth. And what a deserved title shot he got.

So, in your estimation, Ali destroyed Folley? I seem to remember Zora acknowledging that he was no longer in his prime and felt he had been shut out from the title during his prime. That he had a good few rounds against Ali owed more to Ali's allowance than Zora's approach.

 

Ali and Folley were best friends, both before and after the fight. Ali wanted to give Folley a payday.

 

Never said Ali destroyed him. Actually, it was rather perhaps the most competitive defense he had during his first reign, next to the one against Mildenberger. Never even said Folley was in his prime. Just that it's clear as day that he wasn't "shot as ****". So stop putting words in my mouth and just own up to your trolling. You can't even give Folley credit for fighting a good, smart fight and confounding Ali a bit early on. Just because you're so intent on discrediting Ali. That's classic troll stuff and it's a bit sad.

 

Nice little troll gathering, this one. :yep

Ali threads bring out the loons almost as badly as the Leonard ones.

 

Frazier got older too, plus he had eye troubles and a punishing style that wasn't conducive to a long career anyway. So a past prime Ali beat a past prime Frazier and an even more past prime Ali beat an even more past prime Frazier. As I said, Frazier won when they were both closest to their primes, in arguably the biggest fight of all time.

I thought Ali looked better in the FOTC. He beats a lot of top heavyweights that night. Neither was very impressive in fight II and I felt Frazier deserved a draw at least. Ali did a helluva lot of clinching. It took the final couple of rounds in Manila when Ali was teeing off on a completely blind Frazier before he showed any real class over him.

Folley was not a top challenger at that point. It's not like he'd done a whole lot in the past few years. He was just a name that Ali hadn't already beaten, a stay busy defence for Ali and a payday for both of them. The fact that Ali clowned away the first two rounds is an indication of how much of a threat he saw in Folley.

 

Huh? Foley WAS a top contender then. Not an ATG, but check the records of who he fought for the 4 years before, & 2 fights after, Ali.

Win 1-0 United States Nick Sosa KO 2 04/10/1967 United States Madison Square Garden, Phoenix, Arizona Sosa knocked out at 1:34 of the second round.
Win 5-1 United States Wayne Kindred TKO 8 18/09/1967 United States Silver Slipper, Las Vegas, Nevada Referee stopped the bout at 2:50 of the eighth round.
Loss 28-0 United States Muhammad Ali KO 7 22/03/1967 United States Madison Square Garden, New York City WBA World Heavyweight Title. Foley knocked out at 1:48 of the seventh round.
Win 22-11-3 United States Floyd Joyner KO 1 17/01/1967 United States Sam Houston Coliseum, Houston, Texas Joyner knocked out at 1:40 of the first round.
Win 28-10-1 United States Jefferson Davis UD 10 13/12/1966 United States Houston, Texas 98-93, 99-91, 98-92.
Win 8-2-2 United States Henry Clark UD 10 25/10/1966 United States Sacramento Memorial Auditorium, Sacramento, California
Win 28-8-1 United States Jefferson Davis KO 8 28/06/1966 United States Centennial Coliseum, Reno, Nevada
Win 21-3 United States Bob Foster UD 10 06/12/1965 United States New Orleans Municipal Auditorium, New Orleans, Louisiana 9-0, 6-3, 8-1.
Win 8-0 Argentina Oscar Bonavena UD 10 26/02/1965 United States Madison Square Garden, New York City 9-1, 9-1, 10-0.
Win 28-2-1 Germany Gerhard Zech KO 4 14/11/1964 Germany Westfalenhallen, Dortmund, North Rhine-Westphalia
Draw 40-2-1 Germany Karl Mildenberger PTS 10 17/04/1964 Germany Festhalle Frankfurt, Frankfurt, Hesse
Win 24-2 United States Tod Herring TKO 7 17/03/1964 United States Houston, Texas Referee stopped the bout at 1:34 of the seventh round.
Win 25-7-2 Canada George Chuvalo UD 10 17/01/1964 United States Cleveland Arena, Cleveland, Ohio 50-45, 49-42, 47-44.
Win 18-3 United States Billy "The Barber" Daniels UD 10 17/10/1963 Canada Paul Sauve Arena, Montreal, Quebec 49-44, 48-38, 47-43.
Win 5-4 United States Tiger Lynch KO 5 19/09/1963 United States Boise, Idaho Lynch knocked out at 1:49 of the fifth round.

He also beat Cooper, Jones, Machen & Mitoff amongst many others in the several years before this.
Only Mildenburger was a draw or close, Foley got old a few fights after Ali, but was far from wasjed up or just given a payday.


Also Ali was significantly past his best in FOTC, Frazier at the end of his prime, since Ali had lost the top end (especially foot) speed, & hia ability to dance & move endlessly.

I cannot see there 2nd fight possibly being scored a draw.

BUT who know what would happen if Ali was not allowed to get away with all the clinching, which he should not have been permitted. Though I would favor Ali, since Frazier declined more after FOTC & Ali hit a mini-resurgence '72-/72.
Some think Frazier goes in round 2 if the referee handled it properly too...Though given the lay offs temporary & permanent effects, Ali was significantly declined, & his adjustments could never fully compensate.

 

Sorry it saddens you. That, in turn, saddens me. It is as though you are treating my emotions as a toy.

Folley was shot. He wasn't a full term fighting force any longer on the top level. He admitted such himself. I will dig up the rather morose quotes in a few weeks when I am back online.. It was a gift fight. Ali let him have his moments and closed the show in a matter in which he was able to do with very few of his top level opponents. It was a fait accompli and not a building block to a legacy.

All which = Folley was shot as ****.

 

You post many good knowledgeable things Seamus. But I do not know how you can get around his record I listed, & the competition he fought. I want to see his quotes about being compromised, since the record above seems very good in the 4 years before he faced Ali.

 

I never understood this assessment of him. Cleveland was clearly dilapidated, frail even

While I totally DISagree with the assessment of D'amato (severely underrates Ali), Ali was not unstoppable

Bowe would probably beat him, outwork him. I think even Norton who gave Ali problems with his jab